G. of powder was used in Civil war Remington

[Beartracker]

Anyone know for sure how many g. of power was the accepted load used in the 1858 Remington during the Civil war? After doing alot of research on this I can't find anything that documents it in any diaries or manuals.
Any real info would be appreciated. Thanks for any responces, Mike

 

[Old Fuff]

The listed-in-the-book charge was 28 grains of FF black powder when it was topped with a .451 to .454 round ball. But I believe that most loaded their revolvers with paper cartridges made up with bullets, not balls. (as a side note: If you look at the end of the bullet rammer in an original revolver you may notice that the cavity is shaped to fit a rather pointed bullet, not a round ball). In this case the charge ran around 15 grains, more of less. However some bullets had hollow bases, and that would allow a little more powder. I think it's clear that the round-ball load was a better manstopper, but the cartridge was faster and easier to load.

 

[Beartracker]

Thanks Old Fuff. My way of thinking was that they would use at least 35 g. or more in a paper cartridge with a ball. The bullet makes more sense though.
Sure wish I could find the proof of what load was used or favored on the battle field. It's just one of those things that keeps me awake at night, counting grains of powder Seriously , it's been somthing I have been wondering about for a long time and I'm surprised that more wasn't written in diaries or army manuals about the subject. Thanks again for your knowledge and input. Mike

 

[Old Fuff]

Both armies, but the Union one in particular issued paper cartridges. they were carried in a leather pouch that had a wood block inside of it with holes drilled to hold 6 cartridges.

During the Civil War most communication that wasn't verbal was done by sending written notes back and forth on the battlefield (or wherever). After the war all of these scraps of paper that were left were collected and written up in a set of very large books. I think the whole volumn came to something like maybe 50 books, and possibly many more. They were entitled:

"War of the Rebellion - Official Records of the Union and Confederate Armies"

I have only one of these books, and whole sets are very rare - but they can be found in some of our larger libraries.

I bring this up, because when a battle was coming, commanding officers would order all kinds of supplies, including ammunition. Those little notes now tell us what units were armed with what.

 

[Beartracker]

Thanks Old Fuff! Thats great info for sure.I loved reading the diaries of some of the solders. All wars are rough but our early wars were really hard on the soul and the body, Mike

 

[Smokin_Gun]

Civil War Reloading

The listed-in-the-book charge was 28 grains of FF black powder when it was topped with a .451 to .454 round ball. But I believe that most loaded their revolvers with paper cartridges made up with bullets, not balls. (as a side note: If you look at the end of the bullet rammer in an original revolver you may notice that the cavity is shaped to fit a rather pointed bullet, not a round ball). In this case the charge ran around 15 grains, more of less. However some bullets had hollow bases, and that would allow a little more powder. I think it's clear that the round-ball load was a better manstopper, but the cartridge was faster and easier to load.

Old Fluff, you're right on the money with 28gr ...that's also exactly what a RB paper cartidge will hold using FFFg. And 17gr with a heeled conical. Give me a RB any day. A copper Flask with a 30gr spout pours out 27-28 gr consistanly, I get 2 1/2" groups at 25yds. Also knock down 5 out of 5 Steel silouette Rams at 100yards same load. A Rem won't hold anymore than 35gr of BP with a round ball, I can't even squeeze my lube pill in there I have to Bore Butter the top of the ball. In a battlefield situation the Sabre was the Primary weapon Rev backup. In a 100-0 yard shootout most Cavalry Soldiers would carry at least 2, 4, or 6 revolvers. With that in mind the Officer that did carry only one say an Infantry Line Officer would usually carry 4-6 loaded spare cylinders.

I have to comment on pushing caps on with a stick. If you can't seat a cap with the thumb or a capper something is wrong, like it's too small. I've been using CCI#11 caps on everything with a #11 nipple for 24 years. And squeezing most everyone of them. If they go on and you can tap them off they are seated. If they fit and don't come off great. If a hair loose then you squeeze them a hair and the stay on seated, mean the cap is bottomed on the cone. If you have to push them on with a stick chances are they are not seated till the hammer drives them on and it goes off. It is conclusive that caps that are too small create chain fires caused by a high cap being set off during recoil against the frame. But what do I know? Only from my expiriances and every article on loading BP Revs that I have read. Just sharing my info with ya's. If what your doing works keep doing it. But If a Mfg. Recommends, as most do , a #11 cap ya may wanna think about why. Jus' like thay say "Black Powder Only" on most barrels...HeHe.
Here's a couple site to take a look at. Have fun shootin'

http://www.hobbygunsmith.com/Archives/June04/editorial.htm
http://webpages.charter.net/dougd/malpaso/capcap.htm
http://www.hackman-adams.com/guns/capandball.htm

 

[Beartracker]

I shoot 35g in my 1858 Rem all the time and that's useing a wad over the powder and then the ball. I still have room for about 1/8" grease. It shoots great and the accuracy is unreal! I do like 30g for target and the .454 ball seems to work the best but the .451 is a close second.
That's for the info guy's and the links to the other sites. I'm going to check them out. Mike
PS Forgot to ad that the best caps I have found are the German made caps and they #1075 and fit perfectly. I place them on the nipple by hand and then use a 6" long 3/8" doll rod with a soft leather pad on the end to shove the cap all the way down. The cap splits and then falls off as you cock the gun for the next round. Best caps I have ever found. Stay put and no pinching.

 

[Smokin_Gun]

35gr Holy Black or Pyrodex?

I shoot 35g in my 1858 Rem all the time and that's useing a wad over the powder and then the ball. I still have room for about 1/8" grease. It shoots great and the accuracy is unreal! I do like 30g for target and the .454 ball seems to work the best but the .451 is a close second.

Do you use Black Powder? 35gr of FFFg is what you are loading in an 1858 Rem plus a wonder wad and ball and grease? May I ask why you use grease with a wonder wad?

 

[Beartracker]

Smokin_Gun, I use 35 g. of Goex FFFg, and wonder wad and grease. I've always likethe wads over the powder. The grease is not because I'm afraid of chain fires. The grease I use is equal amounts of wonder lube and bees wax. With 35 g. of powder and the wad there is just enough room on the chambers for a small amount of grease. I also like a little grease on the star of the cylinder and the cylinder pin. I also like the way it leaves my barrel so easy to clean and the cylinder so easy and free spinning. Due to the added bees wax it's no where near as runny as Krisco or wonder lube alone. Mike

 

[TexasRifleman]

Beartracker, those German RWS caps, the 1075. Are they corrosive?

 

[Beartracker]

TexasSIGman, I really don't believe they are anymore corrosive then any of the other caps. At least I have never seen any sign of them causeing any corrosion. About 3 years ago I was spending alot of time on one of the cowboy action shooting sites and they gave me some great info and things to try. One of them was the #1075 German caps. As for pushing the cap all the way down with a 3/8 doll rod that was also there idea because we place the cap on with our fingers , not a capper. So they have to be seated no matter what caps you use, #10 or #11 is the same way.
The German caps seem to be just a little hotter and they split just right and fall away like they should when you cock the hammer for the next round.
Every now and then one will get stuck but not very offen, Mike

 

[TexasRifleman]

Thanks. I have read good things about that cap, I will order some.
As you know I'm just getting started in this. I have a tin of CCI#11's but that won't last long

 

[Beartracker]

TexasSIGman, Talking about your caps not lasting long...The other day I was checking to see how many boxes of .454 "Hornady" swaged balls I had left. Found a box with about 50 in it. I toss all my empty boxes and in the top drawer of an old dresser I have in my work shop. There was 63 empty boxes in there. That's 6300 shots!. That's not counting the several boxes of .451 I have shot when searching for the perfect load.
Someone must be shooting my Remingtons when I'm not looking Lol. Mike

 

[Smokin_Gun]

Lube Pills

Smokin_Gun, I use 35 g. of Goex FFFg, and wonder wad and grease. I've always likethe wads over the powder. The grease is not because I'm afraid of chain fires. The grease I use is equal amounts of wonder lube and bees wax. With 35 g. of powder and the wad there is just enough room on the chambers for a small amount of grease. I also like a little grease on the star of the cylinder and the cylinder pin. I also like the way it leaves my barrel so easy to clean and the cylinder so easy and free spinning. Due to the added bees wax it's no where near as runny as Krisco or wonder lube alone. Mike

Mike I use these that's why I asked, no need for a wonder wad or to grease over the top of the ball... seasons cleans and lubricates...We at Voy Forum call them Lube Pills, I swear by them and have been tryin it all for more than 20 years. Bore Butter, Beeswax, parafin mix it as hard or soft as you like. Also can you it as a filler doesn't bleed into BP. You kinda poach a pancake, a pan with the mix melts in a pan of boiling water. let it cool make some cutters and your ready to rock. If you like the idea feel free to ask more. One can use mutton tallow if they want. I have just found bore butter to work the best. This ain't nothin new it's been used since the 17th and 18th century. here's a Pic to get the idea:

http://tinypic.com/view/?pic=e81lra

SG

 

[Beartracker]

Smokin_Gun, The wonder wads I use are treated and the lub doesn't have any effect on the powder.The problem is they really don't keep the fouling down like they should in the barrel or around the cylinder rod.
The one's you are cutting out there look great! How thick are they? How is the lub on the powder when you compress the ball in the chamber? I hate the idea of loading 35 g and only 30g's ignites due to wet or contaminated powder.What are you useing for the wads in that picture????? I guess by now you got the idea that I'm interested , lol. Mike

 

[Osage]

There's no felt or other material in those. I make similar lube pills myself. I melt mutton tallow, add a little beeswax and a couple teaspoons of liquid alox. I let the mixture cool and harden and punch out the "cookies" with a .45 casing that has the base cut off. The cookie is slight soft but firm. it doesn't mix with the powder at all. It's vaporized by the charge and keeps the gun clean.

Here's a pic of my rem bore after shooting around 24 shots using pyrodex. Not a lot but you get the idea. The bore never gets dirtier than this.

 

[Beartracker]

Thanks Osage, Can you tell me just how you do it? How thick do you make them and so on. I would think that when you seat the ball that it would really smash down the pill and and that it would gather powder in the tallow or pill that would be contaminated.
If you can give some instructions to a dummy this one would appreciate it Smokin_gun was talking about useing boiling water.
Thanks, Mike

 

[Osage]

It takes about 1/4 cup of mutton tallow, a couple small chuncks of beeswax and a tablespoon or two of alox to make a 1/8" layer in the bottom of my saucepan. I melt the ingredients over low heat. Smokin must have a gas range which is why he sits his pan in another larger pan of hot water. parrafin and beeswax are combustible when melted (think candles) so you need to keep them away from open flame. I have a glass-top electric range so I just put my pan directly on the heat. When it cools, I use a hollow 45 casing to press down and cut out the wads. I have a dowel rod to push them out of the casing onto wax paper. The wads are about the consistency of a tootsie roll. I really don't think they mix with the powder much at all. To make them harder, add more wax. Mutton tallow is fairly dry and firm when cool but melts at very low temps which is why it makes good wads. parrafin wax seems to be the hardest to melt so I avoid it. I've used a lot of different recipes. A lot of things work. I get the mutton tallow from Dixie Gun Works.

You can also use the right sized brass tubing to cut out wads. You just want to have them big enough that they fit snug in the chamber and seal it off good.

 

[Beartracker]

Thanks Osage. I have some lube I made a while back useing candle wax (I was out of canning wax) with a little Olive oil and a small amount of wonder lube and bees wax . It came out way to thick (waxie) I'll melt that and ad a little more wonder lube and see how it comes out.Just stuck it on the shelf in a container because I didn't have time to mess with it anymore at that time.
How do you store them to keep them from sticking togeather?
I've made alot of wads from felt or wool weather stripping for around your doors and windows. Made the punch from a piece of pipe.You can buy the stuff different thicknes depending on what you need to seal off. They work great but they always seemed a little messie after saturating with melted lube. Hard to beat the wonder wads.
I'm heading to my work shop now and going to get out my one burner electric hot plate. My wife bought it for me years ago to keep me and my concoctions out of her kitchen Mike

 

[Old Fuff]

You may already know this, but the link will take you to a good source for felt if you punch out your own wads.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=123266

 

[Beartracker]

Thanks Old Fuff. I seen that post and it sounds good. The weather stripping works great but I don't like the way it absorbs the grease.
Wish I had one of the old wringer washers that had the rollers on it to squeez out the water like my Mom had. That way you could do a whole sheet of felt and then send it through the wringer to get rid of the excess grease Mike.

 

[Beartracker]

Well, I tried the pills and maybe I did something wrong but they sure do contaminate the powder. I used 35g. of fffg just like I always do and placed a pill over the powder. The pill was about 1/8" thick and fairly stiff . It really looked and felt just right . I pushed the pill down on top of the powder on all the chambers with a 3/8" doll road. Then I placed the cylinder in the gun and placed and ramed a .454 Hornady round ball down solid on the pill. Went out and fired all 6 rounds and it just went POP instead of the usall BANG! It sounded like I loaded it with 15 or 20 g. of powder and felt like it too.
Think I'll stick with the wonder wads. Mike