Garand Problems...again

[Ramone]

Is your ammo at ambient temperature? Or are you keeping it in an inside pocket?

Is it possible your glove or sleeve is being rubbed by the charging handle? Maybe not so much as youdy notice through several layers, but enough to slow itsi travel just a bit?

I don't think that the grease would stiffen so much, but condensation might freeze in the action if the rifle is going from warm to cold air?

 

[P5 Guy]

When you had the trigger group apart you didn't lube the Hammer Hooks right?
They are not broken off right?
http://www.garandgear.com/m1-garand-inspection

Scroll down to the trigger group inspection section.

 

[RecoilRob]

Cold lube can absolutely cause malfunctions so that might be part of the problems. I sold a Ruger P44 to a fellow who took it to an indoor range for his first shooting session and told me the gun didn't work! I'd NEVER had any problems with it so I took it apart to see what was up...and there was a tiny bit of grease that had gotten into the firing pin channel which shouldn't have been there and the gun sat in his car in 0F weather all day before being fired. The combination was enough to slow the firing pin and cause it to fail to fire until it warmed up.

The other thing that comes to mind is we've had several members complaining of doubling and other trigger problems that can't seem to be resolved by gunsmiths looking at the trigger packs and might be from the trigger pull. If you're using a target type slow squeeze until the break surprises you....that might not work as intended with the reset being interrupted by the trigger being released prematurely by the recoil which causes the failure to reset or double. Try pulling smoothly but quickly then hold for a second before releasing. If it still malfunctions there is something wrong with the trigger group, but if it works OK then the 'target pull' might not be right for that rifle with that trigger.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

In the first Korean winter, the troops would urinate on their rifles to keep them functioning. I merely mention it, don't recommend it.

 

[Reloadron]

Arms of the Chosin Few by Bruce Canfield is an NRA article which talks about US Weapons used in Korea.
"The brutal and harrowing campaign was waged between Nov. 27 and Dec. 13, 1950, in atrocious winter weather conditions with temperatures sometimes plummeting to minus 40 degrees F". Like many I have heard the stories of troops urinating on their rifles to get them to function.Urine does contain salts so it obviously has a lower ice point than for example tap water. I question this as having been a practice and here is why. Using road salting in winter a 10% salt content will freeze at about 20 F and if you add more salt and get to about a 20% salt and you get to about 2 F. Typical road salting around here will freeze at about 16F with higher salt concentrations and brine solutions going lower. While I haven't a clue what the ice point of urine is (likely depends on diet intake) I have taken a leak in zero degree temperatures and watched my urine freeze as quick as it hit the deck. Take a steel plate, place it in a good zero degree freezer until it stabilizes at freezer ambient temperature and urinate on the plate. My guess is frozen urine in short order. Grease freezing on the rifles was the problem and I just can't fathom that 98.6 F urine will thaw grease well on a sub zero steel rifle action.

I generally place stock in what veterans pass along but being a Vietnam veteran and having served in country I sometimes hear stories about Vietnam which lead me to wonder which Vietnam the story teller was in because where I was I have no recollection of anything taking place even remotely like the story. May sound good but never happened. I just can't see urinating on a grease frozen M1 Garand and restoring functionality. So freeze a plate of steel in a freezer, urinate on the sub zero plate and let me know how that works out for you.

I would focus on looking carefully at exercising the trigger group outside of the rifle. Look carefully at the hammer and the trigger locking lugs making sure the hammer locks uniformly. Matter of fact
M1 Garand Inspection from the Garand Gear website is a very good source of what to look for including plenty of dimensional data. Short of buying the shop manual by Jerry Kuhnhausen it is likely one of the best data sources on the web. Unless your rifle is packed with heavy grease I doubt your problems are temperature related issues.

Ron

 

[CapnMac]

The rifle is designed to function in arctic climates.

Yes, but you use a significantly different lubing regime.

Failure to lock back is typically an uh-oh of the sear pivot pint--very possible at very cold temperatures.
From the "horse's mouth" as it were (hammer/sear interaction about 07:30):

 

[GooseGestapo]

A former coworker told me of time spent in Alaska and S.Korea in late 50’s and early ‘60’ while in the army. Some of that time he was part of a unit that tested the M14 and early prototypes of the M16 prior to general adoption by the army, for artic performance.

He told me of the time he was at Ft. Greely, AK. He stated that they would take the guns to the range in the afternoon and fire them. They would load them up, bury them in the snow, and leave them over night. Night time temps would reach -30F or lower. The next morning, they would urinate on them to thaw them out, release the safety’s and fire them.

Wasn’t for antifreeze, but to warm them up.

He stated that they found leaving the action closed on empty chambers and kicking the op rod to loosen them and lock open, and insert magazine then chamber a round worked best. Also keep gun in plastic sleeve to keep moisture and snow out.

He talked about how early synthetic stocks would often crack or shatter, and guns would often fail to cycle when fired, if they fired. Then they would go back inside, drink more coffee and repeat the excercises, testing various lubricants, ammo, handling techniques. And; document, document, document... he said it “wasn’t fun”, but was glad to have participated.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

Yes, but you use a significantly different lubing regime.

Failure to lock back is typically an uh-oh of the sear pivot pint--very possible at very cold temperatures.
From the "horse's mouth" as it were (hammer/sear interaction about 07:30):

I've seen that film before. I think it's the nuclearvault channel on youtube that has all of the old Army Signal Copy M1 videos.

I'll pull the trigger group out again, and inspect it again, but yesterday, it seemed to be catching on the hammer hooks just fine. (I do NOT lubricate the hammer hooks in anyway. Been there, done that, and it really does cause doubling.)

We're looking at single digits positive and negative all this week, and a high of 10 on Friday, so I think I'll try to clean all lubricants (grease and Break Free) from the gun, and shoot it some more completely clean and dry and see what happens.

One thing for sure, it's definitely an improvement from before, and that was in warm temperatures.

 

[RecoilRob]

Dry graphite should work OK in the cold....and I'd hesitate to fire my treasured M1 without any lube at all (if I still had it). Dry would be better than grease in the super cold, but lubed with something that won't congeal is even better IMHO.

 

[shooter1niner]

Just for the heck of it try a "tilt test". While out of the stock remove the long spring and see if the rifle will lock and unlock when you raise and lower the muzzle. I'm thinking it should move before you get to 45* muzzle up/down. This will show binding parts. Then put action back in stock, again w/o spring and do tilt test again. This will show if any moving parts are hitting the stock.

Don't straighten op rod, it is supposed to be bent.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

Just for the heck of it try a "tilt test". While out of the stock remove the long spring and see if the rifle will lock and unlock when you raise and lower the muzzle. I'm thinking it should move before you get to 45* muzzle up/down. This will show binding parts. Then put action back in stock, again w/o spring and do tilt test again. This will show if any moving parts are hitting the stock.

Don't straighten op rod, it is supposed to be bent.

It passes the tilt test.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

Well crap. I stripped it down again and blasted every spec of lubricant from the gun. Just got back from the range where it was -1˚F. I only fired about 24 rounds (3 clips) because the rifle is still not functioning properly, even completely dry.

3 rounds out of the first 8, loaded the live round but either didn't reset the trigger or didn't cock the hammer. As before, I could pull the op rod back until just before the live round would be ejected, release the op rod, which re chambered the live round, and then it would fire. This happened a 4th time while shooting the 3rd clip.

I don't know what else to do. A completely new trigger group? I would hate like hell to do that because this rifle is 100% Springfield Armory; I'd hate to have to put an HRA or some other manufacturer's trigger in it. (Not that it is, in any way, a collector grade gun.)

PS: Shot groups kind of sucked, too. about 3" for all 24 rounds...at 25 yards. What is that? Minute of barn door?

 

[P5 Guy]

Really perplexing, the action cycles enough to pick a fresh round out of the en-bloc but does not go back enough to cock the action?

 

[Robbins290]

At this point, i wonder if the trigger group is assembled correctly.

 

[Robbins290]

After rereading the problem a few times, have you replaced the hammer spring? maybe its not strong enough to ignite the primer.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

Really perplexing, the action cycles enough to pick a fresh round out of the en-bloc but does not go back enough to cock the action?

That's how it behaves, yeah.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

At this point, i wonder if the trigger group is assembled correctly.

It's certainly worth taking a look at. I had it completely stripped to components. And this is a new failure mode than when I started. This was the first time I had stripped the trigger group, and I did it using a youtube video.

After rereading the problem a few times, have you replaced the hammer spring? maybe its not strong enough to ignite the primer.

All springs have been replaced.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

Sure wish I had it working 100%. I'm headed back out to the range in a few minutes for pistol leagues, and it's -16˚F tonight. When else can you train with your gun in those conditions?

 

[RecoilRob]

What you're subjecting the rifle to would fall into the 'extreme' category, and even brand new rifles didn't perform 100% in similar conditions so expecting yours to do it now might be asking a bit too much. It could be something simple as the ammo not performing up to par in such cold temps and there might be absolutely nothing wrong with the rifle. It does sound like it's short stroking when it fails to cock....which could easily be ammo related.

Just another thought: have you miked the gas piston to cylinder clearances? I could imagine that an extra thousandth or two from age and wear might bleed off enough in a minimal gas condition caused by the cold to cause short stroking that wouldn't happen in warmer climate or with hotter ammo. Just by chance....would you have some commercial ammo laying around that you could try 'for experimentation purposes only'? I know you shouldn't subject the rifle to regular pressures hotter than M2 Ball, but under the circumstances it might offer a data point for reflection on the problem.

Oh....and you are MUCH better man than me to be out shooting in below Zero temps!!! Good on you!

 

[D.B. Cooper]

What you're subjecting the rifle to would fall into the 'extreme' category, and even brand new rifles didn't perform 100% in similar conditions so expecting yours to do it now might be asking a bit too much. It could be something simple as the ammo not performing up to par in such cold temps and there might be absolutely nothing wrong with the rifle. It does sound like it's short stroking when it fails to cock....which could easily be ammo related.

Just another thought: have you miked the gas piston to cylinder clearances? I could imagine that an extra thousandth or two from age and wear might bleed off enough in a minimal gas condition caused by the cold to cause short stroking that wouldn't happen in warmer climate or with hotter ammo. Just by chance....would you have some commercial ammo laying around that you could try 'for experimentation purposes only'? I know you shouldn't subject the rifle to regular pressures hotter than M2 Ball, but under the circumstances it might offer a data point for reflection on the problem.

Oh....and you are MUCH better man than me to be out shooting in below Zero temps!!! Good on you!

That's an interesting idea. I have a grarndgear gas port I can install to shoot commercial ammo. (Years ago, before the internet, I was too young and dumb to know about the oprod issues with commercial ammo, and all I ever shot was 150 grn Winchester powerpoint and some very hot 168 grn hpbt handloads. The Lord watches out for drunks and fools, I guess. So yeah, I could do that.

PS: it hit -12˚F ambient out there tonight (with a -18 windchill according the weather service.) I had two misfires from my revolver handloads, but the factory 9mm amm function in my XDE no problem. (I figured the autoloader was going jam up.)