Garand Problems...again

[D.B. Cooper]

This is becoming a never-ending saga.

A gunsmith recently replaced the trigger pin in my Garand. Took it to the range today and...now it won't cycle.

After firing a round, I still have the empty case in the chamber. I think it may be partially opening, not ejecting, and then closing again. I think this because the trigger resets. So I can pull the trigger for a second shot and get a click. At least once, I noticed that I could nudge the op-rod forward and the bolt would push forward a fraction of an inch and rotate a few degrees to lock up...all this with a fired case still in the chamber.

The gun works mostly fine otherwise. It is essentially a straight-pull bolt action rifle. However, it wouldn't lift the last two rounds in the clip high enough to be stripped by the bolt, so the bolt just rode right over the top of the next round and closed on empty chamber. (This is with me actuating the bolt and op rod by hand.) The first 6 rounds loaded (manually) and fired and then ejected (manually) just fine.

What gives?

OH. PS: I'm sure this was originally a CMP gun from at least the late 80s/early 90s. I bought it at an LGS in the early 90s. The only part replaced on it thus far is the trigger pin (other than a new Boyd's stock last year.)

 

[GRIZ22]

I'd start by looking at a bad extractor.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

I'd start by looking at a bad extractor.

It extracts and ejects just fine if I pull the op-rod fully to the rear by hand.

 

[Ironicaintit]

Im not a smith, and have never had to troubleshoot a garand, but...

working the action by hand doesnt take into account the speed of the action upon firing, or the residual pressures present as it happens.
Id take a good look at the extractor and its spring again.

that you can nudge the bolt forward to get it to lock back up, could be the extractor resetting itself over the rim of the cartridge.

Or, its just not cycling enough. fire, it pulls the case, and puts it right back in again. that would explain the bolt not picking up another round, as well.

time for some slo-mo camera work!

 

[D.B. Cooper]

Well. If it is an extractor, I believe that requires bolt disassembly, and I don't have the tool for that. (But they're only sixty bucks at Brownell's.)

I almost wonder if should just load up the parts cannon and fire a complete set of new springs throughout, just because. (Op-rod, clip latch, extractor, bullet lifter spings...just change them all at once.)

 

[RecoilRob]

[QUOTE="D.B. Cooper, post: 10975492, member: 242515"
. However, it wouldn't lift the last two rounds in the clip high enough to be stripped by the bolt, so the bolt just rode right over the top of the next round and closed on empty chamber. .[/QUOTE]

I'd start by installing fresh springs as you suspect...just because the lifter should be able to feed all 8 positively and the Garand works using all of the springs in a delicate balance of kinematic perfection. The ammo also might be suspect if it's not supplying a proper pressure curve to the gas system...or that gas system has been altered to reduce the impulse for commercial ammo to be used.

 

[caribou]

Is your return spring binding?......perhaps giving you a short stroke, cocking the hammer but not ejecting or getting behind the rising cartridge to strip it forward from the magazine.

As noted above, check your gas setting?

 

[kBob]

Umm.....the only tool one needs to take apart an M-1 Garand bolt is the handle of the issue M10 cleaning rod.

The type that screws on and has a flathead screwdriver at one end and a little metal tab sticking out the side of the flat end. Take the action out of the stock but leave it all together so the oprod spring is your artificial muscle and helper. The thinner screwdriver end goes in the chamber, a single section of rod goes in the handle and that tab goes under the bottom edge of the extractor. Push the cleaning rod away from the op handle toward the side of the receiver with he clip latch and it lifts the extractor and the Chinese puzzle box comes apart. Extractor and extractor spring releases the firing pin and that releases the ejector and spring.

Sometimes you feel you need three hands to "assemble in reverse order" and it is more frustrating. There is a little curved ramp on the rear of the tool that in reassembly pushes the ejector and spring to the right position then the firing pin has to be manually put in and the extractor and spring put in and mashed in by brute force and ignorance and the firing pin jiggled the whole time to get it right....but you don't "need" a special tool, just that odd little flat head screwdriver of a M10 cleaning rod handle that you also use to tighten and un tighten that X shaped slotted gas cylinder screw with.

It will make you feel better when putting that screwdriver bit in your chamber if you use some of your oprod and receiver grease ( or vasoline) to coat the shaft of the screwdriver half so you don't hear any grinding noises during the operation comeing from your chamber.

What? You weren't taught that in middle school? And you thought the 1960's was all about Peace and Love and Rock and Roll!

-kBob

 

[243winxb]

The only part replaced on it thus far is the trigger pin (other than a new Boyd's stock last year.

If the action was removed to work on the trigger pin, check if the action has been put back in correctly.
Action screws, how tight? Or like a Mini-14?

I know nothing about the M1, fyi.

 

[Kp321]

"I know nothing about the M1, fyi."

We can see that. The M1 has no action screws, the trigger group locks the action into the stock.
A new set of springs is the best place to start along with some lube. The M1 has to have lube in the op rod recess that engages the bolt. Otherwise, it will short stroke like you describe. The original grease was Lubriplate but any good quality grease will work, I use Mobil 1 synthetic.

 

[243winxb]

"New stock" being the key words. Some need a lot of fitting.

 

[cheygriz]

Is the gas port clear??

Is the op-rod slightly bent??

Both easy to check.

 

[GooseGestapo]

Also check the gas cylinder, port, and properly lubricate the op-rod.
Also, what ammo are you using?

It has become vogue lately to use really light loads in the Garands for fear of damaging the op rods. (Hornady #8). Mil-spec is 50.0gr IMR4895, or equivalent to get 2,825fps +/- at 71 feet. I see loads of 46.5 down to 45.0gr recommended. A light load will do what the OP is describing.

 

[Sistema1927]

You don't happen to have an adjustable gas plug such as a Schuster do you? If so, then check that it is open enough.

 

[P5 Guy]

Loose gas plug? Misaligned gas port? Too much contact from the stock? Broken operating spring.
Extractor spring weak, extractor broke.

https://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-...y&utm_campaign=itwine&utm_content=560-000-007

 

[Riomouse911]

Man, your M-1 is sounding like a Max pain...hopefully these ideas will contain the one that gets it back and running.

I'm going to hang onto this thread in case mine start acting up. Both have (so far) run like proverbial clockwork, but with any 70-year old gun it'll be a matter of time before they need some love.

Good luck, and stay safe!

 

[Flatbush Harry]

Is the gas port clear??

Is the op-rod slightly bent??

Both easy to check.

The in-spec op-rod has multiple bends in it...that's how it goes to the side of the receiver and bolt and to the gas port. Also, for the op=rod lubricator, do not use any lube on the area of the op rod that enters and engages the gas system. The piston at the end of the op-rod must be kept dry as well as the muzzle end of the rod.

Question 1: what ammo is being used? The rifle is designed to operate with an appropriate medium burn rate propellant and bullet weight to provide a specific pressure curve and pressure at the gas port. Keep in mind that all elements of the gas action are interactive with specific spring weights. The entire system must be kept in equilibrium with any change in any spec offset by an appropriate change in another. If in doubt use Garand-specific ammunition (M2 ball equivalent or match ammo designed for the M1 Garand like Hornady .30-06 Match ammo with 168gr bullets...it is marked for the M1 on the package). Note that one poster referred to NRA- and mil-spec recommended powder charge of IMR 4895. The 50.0 grain spec is for 150gr FMJ bullets. Other bullets require different powder charges. Also please note the H4895 is not exactly the same as IMR 4895. Also, DO NOT USE anyone else's reloads if you don't know the recipe used or skill of the handloader. Use only the data supplied by NRA or powder or bullet manufacturer. Don't trust the internet without double checking.

Another note on the ammo: if you're using handloads, were the cases properly full length resized? Lot's of possibilities, including the smith who reassembled the trigger assembly could have assembled the rifle incorrectly.

Question 2: Was the new Boyd's stock properly relieved where the op-rod travels. You can tell this by looking at the wear of the wood where the op-rod abuts the side of the stock. A new Boyd's stock will require this relieving with a file/Dremel tool.

Question 3: Have you tried the action operation with the operating spring removed ("tilt test")? With the spring removed, the bolt and operating rod should slide freely as the rifle is tilted in either direction. If it doesn't, the stock fit may be off or the op-rod may be out of spec. Use of the wrong ammo can cause inappropriate bending of the op-rod.

Observation: A perfectly in-spec CMP M1 Garand (and CMP armorers test them before sending) can be seriously effed-up by owners/operators after receipt. You need to find a smith KNOWLEDGABLE on the M1 Garand to assess the rifle and its operation. Not all gunsmiths have significant experience with the M1 Garand/M14/M1A rifle operation. You can contact the CMP customer service for advice. See www.thecmp.org. Also refer to the Tech section on the website for detailed info.

Good luck and good shooting,

 

[Laphroaig]

Some other stuff to consider if you can successfully answer Flatbush Harry's questions 1 thru 3 and are still having problems:

Is there carbon buildup in the gas cylinder?

Is the gas port blocked by carbon or dirt?

Is the gas cylinder lock screw loose?

Is your op rod spring weak or broken?

You'll have to disassemble to do the tilt test so that would be a good time to check and clean the gas cylinder and op rod spring. There is a spec for the acceptable op rod spring length. I don't have that at my fingertips.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

I'd start by installing fresh springs as you suspect...just because the lifter should be able to feed all 8 positively and the Garand works using all of the springs in a delicate balance of kinematic perfection. The ammo also might be suspect if it's not supplying a proper pressure curve to the gas system...or that gas system has been altered to reduce the impulse for commercial ammo to be used.

I thought of this. This only ammo I had on hand at the range was Korean mil-surp M2 Ball and PPU replicated M2 Ball. It malfunctions with both, however, in the past, it has worked fine with both. In the past, I have used a Garand Gear gas plug, but I put the original USGI plug back in it quite a while ago.nI might swap the plus back out and try some plain old Win 150 grn ammo, but I'm not sure what that would prove as the Garand Gear plug is supposed to reduce gas pressure down from the commercial level to the M2 Ball level anyway.

Bu the way, one thing I have noticed, and it's probably just a coincidence, is that I never ever had trouble with this rifle until I started shooting that Korean Mil-surp ammo. (But that's another thread entirely.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

"I know nothing about the M1, fyi."

We can see that. The M1 has no action screws, the trigger group locks the action into the stock.
A new set of springs is the best place to start along with some lube. The M1 has to have lube in the op rod recess that engages the bolt. Otherwise, it will short stroke like you describe. The original grease was Lubriplate but any good quality grease will work, I use Mobil 1 synthetic.

I use Amsoil synthetic-Very similar stuff. I do have some Lubriplate here, but I don't use it anymore. Speaking of grease, however, it occurs to me that it was about 15-17˚F out there yesterday. Wonder if that had anything to do with it.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

Also check the gas cylinder, port, and properly lubricate the op-rod.
Also, what ammo are you using?

It has become vogue lately to use really light loads in the Garands for fear of damaging the op rods. (Hornady #8). Mil-spec is 50.0gr IMR4895, or equivalent to get 2,825fps +/- at 71 feet. I see loads of 46.5 down to 45.0gr recommended. A light load will do what the OP is describing.

Korean Mil Surp (KA 82 headstamp, so not the corrosive stuff) and PPU (Privi Partizan) M2 Ball. However, I do have a few rounds left of some match reloads I loaded up in the early 90s that are 47 grns 4064 under a 168 grn Sierra Match King HPBT I could try. I also have some commercial Winchester 15o grn, or if it really becomes necessary I can load up some new rounds with 4895.

Although, as I said earlier, the gun has worked with all this ammo before.

 

[Laphroaig]

There is a spec for the acceptable op rod spring length. I don't have that at my fingertips.

Now I do. Mil-spec free length is from 19-3/4 to 20-1/4"

 

[GooseGestapo]

Be aware that the Winchester 150gr is NOT loaded to M2 specs. Though I doubt you’ll damage an op Rod with it, it’s SAAMI compliant, but is quite a bit hotter than WWII M2.
The little I’ve chrono’d was right with advertised 2,910fps, or 100fps above M2 specs.

My loads for my M1’s are 48.0gr H4895 w/150-155gr.
46.5 w/165-168; 45.0 w/178-180.

 

[WrongHanded]

The thing I find curious in the OP is that the follower/riser is not lifting the last 2 rounds even as the bolt is manually cycled. After taking the stock off my own Garand to refresh my memory (the magazine system is really pretty amazing), there are only two possibilities for this that I can see.

1. The mechanism is binding. It should be fairly easy to feel for that by holding the bolt back (careful of your fingers) and pushing down and releasing the follower. If it moves freely, this possibility seems unlikely. Though I suppose it's possible the enbloc clip might cause some binding somewhere, but I don't know enough to say.

2. There's not enough spring tension to push the follower and the last two rounds up. This might not be evident without the added friction of the cartridges and the clip. But maybe it is. Maybe you can feel that the follower is easy to move down.

Now if the spring is too weak to push the follower up correctly, it should be weak enough that the action will fully cycle (assuming nothing else is wrong). And conversely, if the follower system itself is binding, that should not effect the op rod and bolt movement. At least from what I can see.

So, is it possible that somewhere in the op rod/main spring/guide rod assembly, you have some binding? If it were me, I'd start there, because that area is linked to both the problem areas you're dealing with.

 

[CapnMac]

Once again, it sounds like your Garand has a main spring issue. M-1 functionally only has two springs, and the other one powers the hammer.
The extraction issues are complicated. A sticky extractor might be the issue, but, an over-strong ejector could also be a culprit. It's rare, but if the claw does not catch the rim well, the pin can push it the rest of the way out. That's all supposed to reset when firing sets the cartridge back, but, apparently, it's not. Twenty years' ago, I'd have told you to get another bolt and just try that.