Garand Problems...again

[Dibbs]

Loose gas plug? Misaligned gas port? Too much contact from the stock? Broken operating spring.
Extractor spring weak, extractor broke.

https://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-...y&utm_campaign=itwine&utm_content=560-000-007

What type of ammo are you using? Some of the Paki and surplus stuff you get online is real poo. I would also
be looking at the simplest thing first, like a loose gas plug, or a poorly adjusted Shuster Plug.

 

[PWC]

M1 bolt disassembly is easier with the tool, but it isn't required. Look on the net, there are at least 2 sets of instructions on how to do it with common hand tools. I had never taken mine apart, but I did so without any problems and most important of all no damage to the bolt.

Go to:


and
http://www.garandgear.com/m1-garand-failed-to-cycle

and
http://web.archive.org/web/20020102153515/http://www.shootingworld.net:80/lane/sevenrndstop.html

 

[Got_Lead?]

I feel your pain, I have 3 Garands. Two run fine, and the other does not. All three are CMP's. Naturally, you know which one has consumed all the attention. It feels like I've almost worn out a barrel trying to get it to go. In the process I've checked and or corrected at least 8 or 10 of known Garand issues, unfortunately to no success yet. It's a rifle like no other, and conventional rifle wisdom doesn't necessarily apply. There's is a pretty steep learning curve with these gals. There is a good web site, which walks you through several items worth checking, no less the gas plug (they have poppet valves which can leak, mine did). http://www.garandgear.com/m1-garand-inspection Op rods and gas cylinders are another Achilles heel of the Garands, here's another web site which specializes in these items, http://www.columbusmachine.com/oprod.htm

The problem you describe sounds like short stroking, perhaps the most common of Garand problems. There are numerous reasons for short stroking, most fall into either gas issues or binding. There are quite a few places for binding to occur. Additionally, the Garand can be a little sensitive about loads and powders. However your loads sound fine and should run your Garand. 4895 be it IMR or Hodgdon is the "Garand" powder, typically 45 to 48 grains depending on bullet weight. Two of mine cycle perfectly on loads as low as 42 or 43 grains of H4895 behind a 168 gr HPBT, and I run them a very mild 45.5 grains for their everyday load.

The gas system is really pretty sensitive, and a little wear can cause the rifle to short stroke. After all the issues I investigated on my problem rifle, I'm afraid this is what it's root problem is, and I'm probably going to need to send the op rod and cylinder to Columbus machine to have them rebuilt.

One thing about short stroking, depending on the severity, is that it is usually worse on the top one or two rounds in a clip, and may run fine once a few rounds are fired. This is because the recoil spring is also the follower spring, and is significantly more compressed when the rifle is fully loaded. You might check this. This isn't going to solve your problem, but may give you another clue to finding the problem. Oh, one thing I did was use the slo-motion video on my phone, (set it to 720 resolution at 240 fps), I could see op rod short stroked on the top round, but ran fine on the remaining. Good luck.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

Once again, it sounds like your Garand has a main spring issue. M-1 functionally only has two springs, and the other one powers the hammer.
The extraction issues are complicated. A sticky extractor might be the issue, but, an over-strong ejector could also be a culprit. It's rare, but if the claw does not catch the rim well, the pin can push it the rest of the way out. That's all supposed to reset when firing sets the cartridge back, but, apparently, it's not. Twenty years' ago, I'd have told you to get another bolt and just try that.

When you say main spring, do you mean op-rod spring? I thought all that did was push the rod forward after recoil.

 

[az_imuth]

I haven't heard it mentioned, but have you tried different enbloc clips? If not, find some good USGI clips and try running a couple in order to eliminate them as the problem. There were some out there that did have issues. It seems like it may have been the Greek clips, but I'm not sure about that. If the clip makes no difference, pull the gas cylinder and make sure the port in the barrel is clear. Check the port on the cylinder and if clear, reinstall and make sure the ports are aligned. Tighten the gas plug down good and go shoot it. You may end up needing to repair/replace the gas cylinder/op rod if they are too worn to provide the gas needed to operate the action.

 

[WrongHanded]

When you say main spring, do you mean op-rod spring? I thought all that did was push the rod forward after recoil.

Yep. Same spring. It also runs the magazine follower. Take the stock off and have a look. It's the only spring attached to the magazine system, and it's very clever.

 

[CapnMac]

I thought all that did was push the rod forward after recoil

John C. was very clever.
Not only does the spring push forward, it also pushes backwards, too.

Used to be, ages and ages ago, the clever-richards would nip a coil or seventeen off the end of the spring, for all sorts of spurious reasons (shoot faster, less recoil, shoot slower, not toss empties so far, cure gout, keep the 43 from winning so much, and so on).

Also, some springs are just "wore out." They still work, just not quite well enough. As in not having enough velocity on closing, or, while closing, "give up" too much energy "powering" the magazine lifter, too.

The above about GI en bloc clips is also not bad; that spring is what powers the "Ping!" and pops the clip out when empty. Just a hair over size will pinch the working parts, which is under good.

 

[FL-NC]

My first guess is a gas issue. Next, op-rod spring.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

Okay. So.

I'm going to try to get out to the range Friday with it and try some things.

I have some new en bloc clips from CMP, and Ill also do some single loaded shots. (I'll be shocked if that is the problem.) I also have a Garand Gear gas tube plug which will allow me to rule out the GI plug. (As I understand it, those have a little poppet valve in them. Perhaps it's stuck in the wrong position.)

If none of that works, I'll be buying an op-rod spring from Brownell's on Saturday.

 

[P5 Guy]

Orion7 for Garand parts.
http://www.m1garand.com

 

[30Cal]

Gas plug poppet stuck open would be obvious. As long as the face of the gas plug looks flush and doesn't have a crack in it, you're barking up the wrong tree by messing with it. Gun definitely sounds like it needs a new oprod spring since it's not loading the last two. I'd also pull the bolt apart or at least blast the heck out of it with brake cleaner.

To pull the bolt apart, I take a couple wraps around a spent 30-06 case and chamber it. This will compress the springs. Use a punch up through the bottom of the mag well to push the extractor out. Easy, 2 second job. getting it back together works the same, although a strip of tape to hold the firing pin in place helps keep things manageable.

 

[P5 Guy]

I've never seen a grenade launcher gas plug on the range. Doesn't mean none got out though.

 

[Reloadron]

Something I am not quite understanding is the rifle cycled just fine. You had a trigger pin replaced for some reason. To replace a trigger pin the only action is remove the trigger group from the action, break down the trigger group and replace the pin. I have only seen one bent trigger pin but my point here is the only action required is remove the trigger group. You got the rifle back for all purposes inoperative and it sounds like it is short stroking which can have about a dozen causes. Replacing a trigger pin doesn't even require the rifle to be field stripped.

You may want to field strip the rifle and inspect the operating rod spring. While a spring does not fail overnight look for flat spots which will show as being shiny. My best guess is whoever worked on the rifle disassembled it beyond necessary and put something together wrong. This is like saying my rifle shot just fine on Tuesday and on Wednesday morning it wouldn't cycle and had major problems. Replacing the springs with a spring kit won't hurt but I question if it will fix the problem. I also can't think of anything in the trigger group which would produce the symptoms you are seeing?

Ron

 

[D.B. Cooper]

Something I am not quite understanding is the rifle cycled just fine. You had a trigger pin replaced for some reason. To replace a trigger pin the only action is remove the trigger group from the action, break down the trigger group and replace the pin. I have only seen one bent trigger pin but my point here is the only action required is remove the trigger group. You got the rifle back for all purposes inoperative and it sounds like it is short stroking which can have about a dozen causes. Replacing a trigger pin doesn't even require the rifle to be field stripped.

You may want to field strip the rifle and inspect the operating rod spring. While a spring does not fail overnight look for flat spots which will show as being shiny. My best guess is whoever worked on the rifle disassembled it beyond necessary and put something together wrong. This is like saying my rifle shot just fine on Tuesday and on Wednesday morning it wouldn't cycle and had major problems. Replacing the springs with a spring kit won't hurt but I question if it will fix the problem. I also can't think of anything in the trigger group which would produce the symptoms you are seeing?

Ron

No one worked on the rifle. I removed the trigger housing group and took it to a gun smith to replace the trigger pin. (The pin had come half way out and locked up the trigger.) As you suggested, I didn't even field strip the rifle for it.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

And the really crap part of all this now is we just had a 7.0 earthquake this morning, and my M1 was go-to rifle if things go south.

 

[Sistema1927]

And the really crap part of all this now is we just had a 7.0 earthquake this morning, and my M1 was go-to rifle if things go south.

The reports that I am hearing/seeing are that the Alaska building codes have allowed you folks to escape major structural damage.

Stay safe, and execute Plan B since Plan A was the Garand. However, I am guessing that you won't see societal breakdown as a result of this quake.

 

[Reloadron]

And the really crap part of all this now is we just had a 7.0 earthquake this morning, and my M1 was go-to rifle if things go south.

Holy crap, I never put together that you were up there. You had two long duration quakes. After a few quakes and forest fires I bid CA farewell years ago. I hated the quakes.Stay safe and expect the damn after shocks.

OK, now I got it, you removed the trigger group. Damn strange that all of a sudden the rifle throws up. Kuhnhausen's shop manual list about a dozen possible causes most of them have been mentioned. I guess we wait and see what a spring kit does.

Ron

 

[D.B. Cooper]

The reports that I am hearing/seeing are that the Alaska building codes have allowed you folks to escape major structural damage.

Stay safe, and execute Plan B since Plan A was the Garand. However, I am guessing that you won't see societal breakdown as a result of this quake.

We have been lucky. The school where I teach faired quite well (built before the 1964 earthquake). I thin it will be okay as long as the power stays on, although we're told to be ready for more aftershocks, and those could take out the power. Even still, I have a bug out place that is somewhat removed from the center of the city.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

strange that all of a sudden the rifle throws up.
Ron

Strange indeed.

 

[dwstone1227]

Do yourself a favor and just do a complete spring replacement. The best springs IMHO for an M1 come from Orion. Order a Orion 7 sprimg kit set for about $28.00. You won’t regret doing this. The CMP does not replace the springs assuming you originally got this from the CMP. The CMP uses the springs that came with the rifle and all those springs were made in 1960 or earlier. If you can afford it, you would be smart to buy this kit.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

Do yourself a favor and just do a complete spring replacement. The best springs IMHO for an M1 come from Orion. Order a Orion 7 sprimg kit set for about $28.00. You won’t regret doing this. The CMP does not replace the springs assuming you originally got this from the CMP. The CMP uses the springs that came with the rifle and all those springs were made in 1960 or earlier. If you can afford it, you would be smart to buy this kit.

I assume the gun came from DCM. I bought it at a gun shop in the early 90s.

Why do you think Orion's springs are better than others? (I went to their website but you can't even view their stuff without creating an account.)

 

[Reloadron]

The member who is really good with there rifles is forum member Orlando who normally finds any thread with M1 Garand in it. He was last active Sept 2018 so I assume he is still around. He recommended Orion springs if I recall correctly as well as many other members and if I recall correctly he could tell you why he liked Orion. My own read is that nobody has ever had any problems or issues with them.

Ron

 

[D.B. Cooper]

Okay. So...the range is closed for the entire week due to the earthquake. (The access road is pretty trashed and causing all kinds of traffic delays. A normal 30 min trip is now several hours.)

In the meantime, I've ordered an entire spring set from Orion and a bolt disassembly tool from Brownell's. To wit, I have the following questions:

Does anyone know where I can find the:

1.) min and max length of the firing pin?
2.) min max diameter of the gas tube? (I can't find go/no-go gauges anywhere in stock. I might try to measure the front and rear ends with an inside dial caliper.)
3.) min and max diameter of the op-rod at the muzzle end
4.) min and max diameter of the gas port (and some way of measuring for that, e.g. are there known common drill bit diameters with which I could use the drill shank (not the cutting end) and go/no-go gauges)
5.) any other critical or high-wear item dimension.

I may as well as measure/inspect everything while I have it apart. I hate like hades to remove that gas tube and front sight from the splines. It gets looser every time you mess with it, and that leads to a front sight that moves around which leads to larger shot groups.

 

[Reloadron]

I wish I had known you were going to buy a M1 Garand bolt disassembly tool, you really don't need one. I just use an everyday 4" C Clamp available in any hardware store including Alaska.




A 45 ACP round will also work verse the cut down 30-06 case.



Insert the cut case or 45 ACP with the rim under the extractor and then straighten it and draw down the C Clamp.







Look closely at the ejector spring and the extractor springs for any shiny flat spots.



The problem with firing spring dimensions is there are actually several so it isn't just an overall length dimension. There is also the tip of the firing pin to bolt face protrusion dimensions with the pin installed. While there are gauges made the protrusion can be measured using a caliper as a depth gauge and get you a good enough number. Tip protrusion min is 0.044" and the max is 0.060" with an earlier maximum of 0.059". Protrusion is really all you need to know as even knowing all of the actual pin dimensions it is a matter of what you get with the pin in the bolt. The same pin in different bolts will give different protrusion.

The Max gas cylinder diameter is 0.530" which can be measured with a dial bore gauge and keep in mind roundness counts so as the gauge is inserted deeper and deeper into the cylinder it gets rotated.

The gas port I can't find data on but using a pin gauge on an old take off barrel I am getting right about 0.075" and that is true of several barrels laying around here.

The US .30 Caliber Gas Operated Service Rifles by Jerry Kuhnhausen is likely the best shop manual on the M1 Garand and the M14 (M1A) out there.

Ron

 

[D.B. Cooper]

I wish I had known you were going to buy a M1 Garand bolt disassembly tool, you really don't need one. I just use an everyday 4" C Clamp available in any hardware store including Alaska.

Thans for everything. The c-clamp is an awesome idea. I have a bunch of them in the garage.