Gas System Basics

Status
Not open for further replies.

bobhaverford

Member
Joined
Sep 26, 2005
Messages
138
Just purchased Boston's Gun Bible and have been reading diligently at this site. I've not been able to find a clear explanation of the various gas systems employed by different rifles. For example I'm not sure what a "delayed blow back" system (H&K) is and why it is cleaner than an AR system. What is it about the FAL system that makes it cleaner than the AR? If the AR is so bad why was the design adopted?

What kind of modification of the gas system is employed in the AR-180? If this is superior why hasn't it been adopted? What are the advantages and disadvantages as well as a basic explanation of the various gas systems?

Thank you in advance for any help.
 
This might help a bit

For gas basics-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_operated

Roller delayed
All 7.62mm CETME rifles are built around Vorgrimlers' roller delayed blowback system. This system employs a two parts bolt with two rollers. The front bolt part (bolt head) is relatively light and has a bolt face with extractor on it. It also has a hollow cavity at the rear, in which an inclined forward end of the rear part of the bolt (bolt body) is inserted. The system features two rollers, inserted from the sides into the bolt head and rested on the inclined forward end of the bolt body (see this diagram; it will pop up in the new window). When gun is fired, the pressure began to move the cartridge back against the bolt face. The rollers, which are extended into the recesses in the barrel extension, began to move inward into the bolt head, due to inclined shape of the recesses. This movement translates into the faster rearward movement of the heavier bolt body, so, at the initial moments of shot, when pressure in the chamber is still high, bolt face moves relatively slow. When pressure drops to a reasonable level, rollers disengage the barrel extension completely and from this moment on the bolt head and the bolt body move backward at the same speed, extracting and ejecting spent case and chambering a fresh cartridge on the way back.

From http://www.world.guns.ru/assault/as60-e.htm

M-16 Gas
The heart of the AR-15 is the direct gas system, developed by the Eugene Stoner in the early 1950s. This system uses no conventional gas piston and rod to propel bolt group back after the shot is fired. Instead, the hot powder gases are fed from the barrel and down to the stainless steel tube into the receiver. Inside the receiver, the rear end of the gas tube enters into the "gas key", a small attachment on the top of the bolt carrier. The hot gases, through the gas key, enter the hollow cavity inside the bolt carrier, and expands there, acting against the bolt carrier and the collar around the bolt body. The pressure of the gases causes the bolt carrier to move back against initially stationary bolt. The linear rearward movement of the carrier initially transferred into the rotation of the bolt, via the cam slot in the bolt carrier and the cam pin, attached to the bolt, that followed the slot. As soon as the bolt is rotated to unlock from the barrel, the bolt group continues its rearward travel under the inertia and the residual pressure in the barrel, extracting the spent case and compressing the buffer return spring, located in the buttstock. The forward movement of the bolt group first strips the fresh cartridge from the magazine and, on the final stage of the movement, rotates the bolt to lock into the barrel extension. The bolt has 7 radial locking lugs, eight lug is located on the extractor claw. Since the introduction of the XM16E1 rifle, the forward assist device is used on all military and most civilian AR-15 type rifles. This device consist of the spring-loaded button with internal claw, that engages the serrations on the right side of the bolt carrier to push it forward, if the pressure of the return spring is insufficient to do so (for example, due to the fouling inside the receiver or chamber). The rifle will not fire unless the bolt is locked and the bolt carrier is in its forwardmost position. The bolt carrier and the bolt itself are chrome-plated. Another feature of the AR-15 type rifles is the bolt catch device, that locks the bolt group in the open position when the last round is fired. To release the bolt group one must push the button, located at the left side of the receiver, above the magazine. The "T"-shaped cocking handle is located at the rear of the receiver, above the buttstock, and does not reciprocate when gun is fired.

http://www.world.guns.ru/assault/as18-e.htm

FAL
It uses short piston stroke gas system with gas piston located above the barrel and having its own return spring. After the shot is fired, the gas piston makes a quick tap to the bolt carrier and then returns back, and the rest of the reloading cycle is commenced by the inertia of bolt group. The gas system is fitted with gas regulator so it could be easily adjusted for various environment conditions, or cut off completely so rifle grenades could be safely launched from the barrel. The locking system uses bolt carrier with separate bolt that locks the barrel by tipping its rear part into the recess in the receiver floor.

http://www.world.guns.ru/assault/as24f-e.htm

World.guns.ru is a great site for gun info, look around in it sometime.
 
I'm still trying to get a visual on the FAL and H&K gas blowback systems. Anyone have a link to schematics clarifying how these systems work? Thanks.
 
Gas Systems

Let me give it a try.

The H&K does not have a 'gas system'. It operates directly from the recoil of the fired cartridge. The previous descriptions provided are correct and detailed. There is no 'gas cylinder', 'gas port' or 'gas tube' in an H & K rifle. When it fires, everything tries to move to the rear (toward the shooter). The bolt is slightly delayed by the 'roller lugs' just long enough for the bullet to clear the barrel and the gas created by the burning powder to drop to a safe pressure level. By that time the bolt has started to move and functions like all the others in ejecting the empty case and reloading a fresh round of ammunition under the pressure of the recol spring.

The FAL has a hole in the barrel that vents some of the high pressure powder gas before the bullet leaves the barrel. That high-pressure gas impacts the gas piston. That forces the gas piston to the rear. The piston has a long rod that impacts the bolt carrier and this starts the process of unlocking the action. It is kind of like you take a big block of wood at rest on the bench and smack it with a small hammer. The block move a short distance even though the hammer only contacted it briefly.

The M16 blasts the gas back directly on the bolt carrier. The main problem there is fouling of the action. The FAL doesn't allow gas into the action. Neither does the H & K because it doesn't use the gas at all. Incidently the M-1 Garand used a piston that traveled the full lenght of a cartridge to work the bolt while most modern guns use a 'short stroke' tap to start the parts moving and then lets inertia do the rest of the work. The M-14 uses a 'cut off and expansion' gas system that is quite reliable and clean.

I hope this helps. If it doesn't, ignore me.:)
 
bobhaverford said:
I'm still trying to get a visual on the FAL and H&K gas blowback systems. Anyone have a link to schematics clarifying how these systems work? Thanks.
Here's a good link on how roller locking delayed blowback operation works. The video links are dead on that page, but one is active on the Technical Engineering Detail page.

Couldn't find any really good pics covering the FAL gas and locking systems, but these disassembly instructions might give you a better idea of how it works. This link also has a lot of useful info.
 
THat was very helpful. Thanks. It sounds like the FAL works just like the AK-47. Correct?
 
bobhaverford said:
THat was very helpful. Thanks. It sounds like the FAL works just like the AK-47. Correct?
Not exactly. Both are gas-operated, meaning that some propellant gas is tapped via a hole closer to the muzzle of the barrel, into a tube above the barrel, which then impinges upon a piston/operating rod, which in turn forces the bolt carrier rearward, unlocking the bolt.

The differences are that the FAL uses what's called a short stroke piston that is not rigidly attached to the bolt carrier and does not travel the full reciprocating distance of the bolt carrier, whereas the AK uses a long stroke piston which is rigidly attached to the bolt carrier thus does travel the full reciprocating distance of the bolt carrier.

The FAL and AK also lock differently. The AK uses a rotating bolt, whereas the FAL uses a camming block. Kind of difficult to explain without seeing it.
 
I shot a two-day 1800-round fighting carbine class without cleaning my AR15. It even has a stainless barrel with a 223 Wylde chamber, and a JP trigger. I didn't see "Boston" there. :neener:

A100_0474_img.jpg [ link to LARGER image ]

The problems associated with "self fouling" of the AR15 are highly over-rated.

The most significant reason to use a piston design is to have less gas blowback when shooting with a suppressor, IMO.
 
man, that chamber is just plain nasty, I don't think I've ever seen one that dirty, even after firing hundreds of blanks. did you experience any malfunctions? I saw a kid blow one up, (no permanat damage) from the bolt not being completely in battery.
 
If the AR is so bad why was the design adopted?
It's not bad. It was designed to be simple and reliable. Fewer moving parts = fewer parts to break. Yes it gets dirty, but if it is made correctly the carbon deposits tend to "break off" rather than interfere with the action. A squirt of CLP will generally loosen the deposits up enough to keep it from stopping.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top