Is a mid length gas system really better in a 16" AR?

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1500 m/s is 4921 fps, which is below 5500fps. So you're saying that the speed of sound at temp is the issue, or it isn't? Is 4921 close enough to 5500 to mean that restricting the port below .06" than expanding back to .120 in the gas tube has no consequences for particulate condensing out of gas?

The primary thing I have been trying to get at is that the AR15 bolt and gas system was designed around a certain amount of flow and pressure that is found in the 20" version. Tapping the gas other places, using a smaller port, then reducing that diameter further is not going to duplicate the design parameters. And there has to be a point when a gas restriction is simply too small for good function and longevity.
2700 K is the flame temperature of the burning propellant, and 5500 fps is the speed of sound for a gas at that temperature. Sorry, I didn't give you exact numbers, but I figured what's 20% between friends for a thumb-nail sketch of what's going on in an M4 gas system.

Apparently, quite a bit for some. So, here is a map of the temperature.

Untitl_zpsah4db2ys.png
If you take the temperature (in K) and plug it into the formula for the speed of sound at that temperature, you will find the entire gas flow through the port is sonic except in the stagnation points.

As to condensates, the temperature of the gas in the tube stays above 1000 K until long after the bullet is gone and the pressure has dropped. The temperature of any gas system shorter than a rifle will be higher than a rifle, so unless you are using that crappy propellant they used back in 1966 that caused all those problem, you won't have a problem.

[To the bold] Yes, you can. I provided links to reports that have the necessary equations and information to model the system. The only major obstacle is the range of port pressures that work for shorter gas systems gets smaller as you shorten the tube length.

A 16" barrel with a mid-length with a .078 port and a standard buffer is very close to a rifle length with a 20" barrel and rifle buffer, as far as bolt velocity goes, over the same range of port pressures. And, that range is much wider than a 16" with a carbine length gas system, or even a 14.5 with a CLGS.
 
Just on intuition, I would think it would wear at the same rate as a 14.5" carbine using the same gas port diameter. The extra barrel length at the end wouldn't affect the characteristics of the gas as it's hitting the gas port, or am I mistaken?
Velocity and temperature being the same (and they are for the most part), pressure becomes the governing factor.
 
Velocity and temperature being the same (and they are for the most part), pressure becomes the governing factor.
Are the peak pressures actually different, or only the amount of time the system stays pressurized though? Doesn't peak pressure occur right after the bullet has passed the port , then the extra 1.5" at the end shouldn't change it. I would think the temperature and velocity are the factors that cause the erosion.
 
Are the peak pressures actually different, or only the amount of time the system stays pressurized though? Doesn't peak pressure occur right after the bullet has passed the port , then the extra 1.5" at the end shouldn't change it. I would think the temperature and velocity are the factors that cause the erosion.
The longer barrel is going to keep gas moving through the port longer. So, at a minimum, the wear is going to be increased by the extra amount of time the bore is pressurized.
 
The longer barrel is going to keep gas moving through the port longer. So, at a minimum, the wear is going to be increased by the extra amount of time the bore is pressurized.
Yeah that's true. I wonder if it's adds up enough to cause a truly significant increase in wear, though. I don't know how much less the pressure kept from the last inches of barrel would be compared to peak pressure.
 
Does the gas port on a carbine length setup erode significantly faster than the port on a rifle length or mid length setup?

Yes, the carbine port position erodes faster than a rifle port. HOWEVER, the difference is moot - the port in a carbine lasts longer reliably than the barrel's effective service life - meaning you've burned out the throat and "ringed" the barrel in most cases before the port erosion ever starts showing degradation issues.

Port erosion problems really only show up in rifles which are shot long past the appropriate service life of their barrel - most of us who actually want to hit something will replace our barrels when a 3/4MOA rifle opens up to 1-1.5MOA, or a 1MOA rifle opens up to 2MOA, predominantly caused by throat erosion. Guys who just turn money into noise as fast as they can and never worry about their rifle hitting anything will burn their ports up too, but they won't really notice the effect since they don't actually hit anything anyway, so they won't notice any change when it doesn't hit anything... but worse...

A Ford F-350 diesel will last more miles, have more power, and get better fuel mileage pulling a heavy load than an F-150. Doesn't mean the F-150 isn't one of the best trucks on the road for its purpose (blended light duty hauling as well as no-load driving with a lower capital outlay), so it's a better suited truck than the F-350 for most consumers. The long barrel AR's might last longer than short gas AR's, but at the end of the day, getting 280k, 440k, 320k, 240k miles out of F-150's before I sold them off (the 440k did seize up) is more than I ever needed to get out of them. Getting 40,000rnds out of a Bushmaster carbine (6 barrels) has absolutely been enough "miles" in my book to quantify that as "beyond acceptable service life."
 
Yes, the carbine port position erodes faster than a rifle port. HOWEVER, the difference is moot - the port in a carbine lasts longer reliably than the barrel's effective service life - meaning you've burned out the throat and "ringed" the barrel in most cases before the port erosion ever starts showing degradation issues.

Port erosion problems really only show up in rifles which are shot long past the appropriate service life of their barrel - most of us who actually want to hit something will replace our barrels when a 3/4MOA rifle opens up to 1-1.5MOA, or a 1MOA rifle opens up to 2MOA, predominantly caused by throat erosion. Guys who just turn money into noise as fast as they can and never worry about their rifle hitting anything will burn their ports up too, but they won't really notice the effect since they don't actually hit anything anyway, so they won't notice any change when it doesn't hit anything... but worse...

A Ford F-350 diesel will last more miles, have more power, and get better fuel mileage pulling a heavy load than an F-150. Doesn't mean the F-150 isn't one of the best trucks on the road for its purpose (blended light duty hauling as well as no-load driving with a lower capital outlay), so it's a better suited truck than the F-350 for most consumers. The long barrel AR's might last longer than short gas AR's, but at the end of the day, getting 280k, 440k, 320k, 240k miles out of F-150's before I sold them off (the 440k did seize up) is more than I ever needed to get out of them. Getting 40,000rnds out of a Bushmaster carbine (6 barrels) has absolutely been enough "miles" in my book to quantify that as "beyond acceptable service life."
The major effect of gas port erosion is an increase in cyclic rate.

A straight walled tube is not a good nozzle. The actual constriction is smaller than the diameter.

fe_135_3_031302_f004.png
If you look closely at the velocity maps I posted earlier, you can see the vena-contracta jet.

Most people believe before erosion can cause a problem, it has to wear to the point where the gas port is actually a larger diameter. This is not true.

0332_MD_BIPR.qxd02-00.jpg
If you look at the above image, you can see the "coefficient of discharge", or simply the efficiency of the orifice in passing mass flow, increases if you round the leading corners of the orifice. Note that the actual hole through the material is still the same size. If you look at the image below, you will see that if the leading edges are rounded to a certain point, the diameter of the vena-contracta will be able to expand to the full diameter of the orifice.

flow-measurement-13-638.jpg

Gas port erosion wears the barrel bore side of the gas port to have rounded corners, and this makes it a more efficient nozzle. Thus, more mass can flow through the port, even though if one were to measure the port from the outside with a pin gauge, it is still the same diameter as it started.

In as few as 2500 rounds you can see a cyclic rate increase of 100 rpm, it will increase until the bore side of the port has worn to the most efficient shape, and then the cyclic rate will stabilize, around 3500 to 5000 rounds, depending on the barrel material, hardness, pressure, etc, etc.

Unless you start out with a overly high cyclic rate, this really isn't much of a problem. As a point of reference, the Army notes that if the cyclic rate gets too much over 1100 rpm, M4s start to break parts at an increased rate.
 
Yes, the carbine port position erodes faster than a rifle port. HOWEVER, the difference is moot - the port in a carbine lasts longer reliably than the barrel's effective service life - meaning you've burned out the throat and "ringed" the barrel in most cases before the port erosion ever starts showing degradation issues.

Port erosion problems really only show up in rifles which are shot long past the appropriate service life of their barrel - most of us who actually want to hit something will replace our barrels when a 3/4MOA rifle opens up to 1-1.5MOA, or a 1MOA rifle opens up to 2MOA, predominantly caused by throat erosion. Guys who just turn money into noise as fast as they can and never worry about their rifle hitting anything will burn their ports up too, but they won't really notice the effect since they don't actually hit anything anyway, so they won't notice any change when it doesn't hit anything... but worse...

A Ford F-350 diesel will last more miles, have more power, and get better fuel mileage pulling a heavy load than an F-150. Doesn't mean the F-150 isn't one of the best trucks on the road for its purpose (blended light duty hauling as well as no-load driving with a lower capital outlay), so it's a better suited truck than the F-350 for most consumers. The long barrel AR's might last longer than short gas AR's, but at the end of the day, getting 280k, 440k, 320k, 240k miles out of F-150's before I sold them off (the 440k did seize up) is more than I ever needed to get out of them. Getting 40,000rnds out of a Bushmaster carbine (6 barrels) has absolutely been enough "miles" in my book to quantify that as "beyond acceptable service life."

That's what I was thinking/hoping.
 
Your rifle sounds like it has about the lowest working gas pressure possible. Is the port 20" size, or even larger?
Haven't the foggiest, though since it's a rifle length gas system I would bet it has the 20" port. I like the 18" length and the long handguards for hunting/varminting and these rifles are readily available from numerous sources (got mine from PSA in Columbia, SC). I'm not aware of them having issues - I'm not quite as technical as lysanderxiii but I do have a pretty good handle on things that work. I'm a user more than an analyst, though I do pay attention.
:cool:
 
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