Gays and Jews question

[twoblink]

It would seem, (in order, at least to my eyes) the 2 groups that get bashed the most are:

#1) Gays
#2) Jews

YMMV.. But most Jewish groups I know, are anti gun.. (someone forget to include the WWII chapters in the history books???)

Second, (Pink Pistols aside) it would seem that quite a few gay groups are very anti gun..

This is so counter-intuitive I am just curious why..

If I'm part of a minority that is under constant threat, it would seem to me a 357mag CCW'ed would level that playing field mighty quick.

Or am I just speaking logic out of my rear end and they aren't?

 

[Mark Tyson]

Gays are probably leery of cultural conservativism, so they fall in with the liberal crowd. Since most liberals tend to be anti gun they absorb some of those values without thinking about the issue too much. As for Jews I have no idea.

These two groups are celebrated by blissninnies as victims, a status that receives extra special treatment. Victims are not supposed to fight back but are supposed to beg for protection from that righous incorruptible defender of life, the government.

 

[twoblink]

I have quite a few gay friends whom, after I gave an explaination of why they should be pro-gun, they were..

But I agree.. "Victim status" is something most don't want to give up..

 

[Abenaki]

I am a Jew by birth........was never brought up in the religion.
My Great Grandfather came to America right about the time of the first world war.

I was brought up that only free men own guns.
I was taught about the hollocaust. And what never again means!

This Jew understands what gun control is about.
The other Jews........I don't understand them.
Must be a culture thing.

Abenaki

 

[twoblink]

Some of the big "Hollywierd" Jews seem to have missed what "Never Again!" means..

Glad it doesn't apply for all Jews Abenaki..

 

[Drizzt]

I agree with you, but am constantly surprised, as most of the gays I know (and in Austin, that's a few) are actually pretty libertarian in their political views. More of a 'Just leave me alone, and I'll leave you alone' typre of deal. Most of them have nothing against guns, either, but maybe that's just a Texas thing...

 

[Gray Peterson]

Gays are probably leery of cultural conservativism, so they fall in with the liberal crowd. Since most liberals tend to be anti gun they absorb some of those values without thinking about the issue too much. As for Jews I have no idea.

Gays are reflexively anti-gun because conservatives, who usually represent the pro-gun side, bash them on a regular basis.

Most gays I know are not anti-gun. They are just anti-gun by default. You can almost never convince as a heterosexual them to go pro-gun. Only another gay person really can, hence the Pink Pistols.

 

[7.62FullMetalJacket]

They do not need guns. Anything against select groups is a hate crime in addition to being a normal crime. They are a protected class...by the gubermint...we are here to help...

With all those protections, who needs personal responsibility?

 

[Kaylee]

I think a combination of..

1. as already alluded to, classic party-line bigotry. "I think all X think Y, I think all X hate me, therefore Y must be bad."
You'ld think with a thought process like that (which yes, occurs on both sides of the aisle, that Party A would have to stop breathing 'cause Party B enjoyed oxygen.

2. The belief that disarming "all those right-wing zealots and criminals" makes the world a safer place.

-K

 

[Monkeyleg]

I think Lonnie nailed it the best.

Of all of my and my wife's real friends, probably 40% are gay. Don't know how that happened, but that's the way it is.

The problem is that, for any minority--gays, gunowners, blacks, Hispanics, what have you--the political parties seem to have staked out their territories.

We can't vote Democrat because the Republicans claim to own the gun rights issues. Well, sooner or later you just might find yourself leaning toward other Republican issues that you really weren't concerned about or keen on to begin with. That's just human nature.

The gays I know are conservative in their beliefs about taxation, and even guns. But they're scared of the anti-gay faction of the Republican party.

Same goes for Jews, although I don't really understand historically where their distrust of Republicans comes from.

 

[spacemanspiff]

maybe my young age is showing through, or perhaps my naivete as far as racial issues...so forgive me for asking what might be a really dumb question.

in years past, jews have been discriminated against, but does that still stand today? up here in alaska we see our fair share of racism/bigotry against all the normal ethnic groups, but theres not much anti-semitism from what i've seen.
is that different down in the states?

 

[StonerStudent]

It's about how gun owners are protrayed in the press......guns,pickup truck......redneck. All things that scare the LGBT to death.

 

[Andrew Rothman]

Speaking as an ethnic Yid who never really bought into any religion much...

Anti-Semitism still exists, but it has a different profile than, say, racism agaist blacks.

Racism can be said to be institutional -- a black person has a harder time getting a job, a house, a promotion, or even a taxi.

Anti-Semitism, it seems to me, is not really institutionalized, because Jews have risen to senior levels in much of the "establishment." (And yes, we do run Hollywood. What else would explain Jason Alexander's success? )

Instead, it is fringe groups that feel disenfranchised that tend to blame convenient scapegoats (like the Jews, or the Mexicans...) for their problems. Good old fashioned kluckers, neo-Nazis, skinheadas, etc.

As far as getting physically bashed, I'm glad that I only look Jewish, not gay.

(But I think that shooting with the Pink Pistols would be a blast!)

But I think that the JPFO has the right idea -- that "never again" is a call to action, not just a fond wish.

But most people pick up their political views as a package deal.

There's the Conservative, God-and-Country, Prayer-in-the-Schools, End-Abortion, Stop-the-Welfare, From-My-Cold-Dead-Hands, Get-Out-Of-My-Wallet, Yay-USA Republicans,

or the Tolerant, Cultural-Pluralism, ACLU, Pro-Choice, Welfare-Rights, Brady-Bunch, United-Nations, Never-Met-A-Spending-Program-They-Didn't-Like Democrats.

(A few brave souls actually think for themselves and go libertarian. )

Jews and gays tend to fit better in the second group, and pick up hoplophobia by osmosis.

I have a very "anti" family. They have no idea I've been packing for the last six months whenever they see me. Snicker.

One by one I'll bring `em around. Well, maybe half of them.

 

[twoblink]

The part I try to explain to the liberal jews I know is "Never Again!" is pretty lame when you are empty handed and they have Mausers... wouldn't you say?

The polarization of political parties and issues has forced a lot to choose restricted diets as far as agendas...

 

[Don Galt]

I've known many gay people in my life... they are not generally wanting to be victims, but they are actual victims because they are a group that is targetted by people for beatings. Literally, kids from the suburbs would come into the gay neighborhood, and find some queers to bash.

So, in many cities, they developed something like the Guardian Angels to patrol the areas where this happend-- often after someone got killed and brought attention to the issue. These Q Patrols, are often unarmed, relying on numbers and cellphones and a good relationship with local Law enforcement when things get rough. Usually numbers are enough. That's pro-active.

But the opposition comes across, to them, as a unified front of militia/christian republicans who are very anti-gay because of their religious views, and pro-gun. So the reflex is to see them as all being the same (just as people here see liberals as all being the same) and to associate the pro-gun stance with Pat Robertsons call for the death penalty for homosexuals.

But there is some real truth to that-- many of the discussion boards in the gun culture are full of anti-gay bigots, and while on the internet nobody knows your sexual orientation, without an organization like Pink Pistols, there's no clear place for them to go to get educated.

Frankly, I was surprised as I got to know people in the gun culture that they weren't anti-gay. I was one with the same assumption (Though it was a life-long NRA member who was very conservative, who introduced me to firearms-- we disagreed on politics greatly, but were friends anyway. ) And yet there are people like John Ross, who I consider a generally decent guy, yet still makes claims such as that Gay people have hundreds of partners a year. (Which is not the case.)

"Never Again" has not sunk into jewish culture, it seems, as much as one would expect. And yet, the message should be even more relevant to gay people. In the holocaust jews were sent to camps, and many of them killed, but gays were generally shot on the spot. (After the Nazis got the mailing lists of german gay organizations and went house to house finding the members.) The mortality rate for gays was higher than jews, though more total numbers of jews were killed.

But those facts aren't really discussed in gay circles. They have taken the nazis pink triangle as their symbol, but forgotten the history behind it. They associate anti-naziism with anti-racism, and that leads them down the path to the Democrats who profess to be anti-racism (despite economic policies that are damaging to minorities.)

I think any conservative who takes the time to talk to a gay person, and doesn't act like a homophobic jerk, who tells him about the Nazis and why guns are important, is going to find fertile soil for a convert from liberalism. Its just that there are very few such conservative people.

I myself have a big question in my mind as to whether most conservatives are bigots or not. Listening to AM Radio, its clear at least that those people are bigots, and how can you trust someone who claims to be a constitutionalist, yet supports the prohibition of gay marriage?

The republicans chose to link thier issues into a set, as do the Democrats. Since most people do not go the third way (libertarianism) the see only two choices. IF you weren't exposed to guns as a kid, and don't have any, its fairly easy to miss the significance of the gun issue and end up being a Democrat.

There's a real opportunity here to turn both jews and gays to a more libertarian ideology if pro-gun organizations would market to them and show that racism and homophobia do not go hand in hand with the right to keep and bear arms. It may seem silly to make that characterization to you guys, but its the one they see.... and its the one presented to them repeatedly by the media and liberal figures. (And unfortunately, it has too much truth to it.)

 

[zastros]

There's a real opportunity here to turn both jews and gays to a more libertarian ideology if pro-gun organizations would market to them and show that racism and homophobia do not go hand in hand with the right to keep and bear arms. It may seem silly to make that characterization to you guys, but its the one they see.... and its the one presented to them repeatedly by the media and liberal figures. (And unfortunately, it has too much truth to it.)
_____________________


Well stated, Mr. Galt.

As someone who has worked in "the Theatre" for almost twenty years and now works at the New Jewish Theatre in St. Louis, I am intimately(?) acquainted with both groups. By and large, both groups are VERY liberal. It was always my opinion, that a lot of the jewish people that fled to this country were communists and over a couple of generations this has watered down to liberalism. With most of the gays that I know, it is more of a, "If that's what conservatives are like then, hunh uh Baby! I don't THINK so!"

It may be that now that gays are out of the closet and into the living room, there may be room for divergent opinions to bloom. I only know that when I joined the Pink Pistols chapter in St. Louis, that 2/3 of the members I knew were straight. ( Considering that, counting me, there were only 3 members makes this a much less important statistic. Or at least that's what I'm telling my wife. ;-} )

zastros

 

[Oleg Volk]

My guess is that both gays and jews have been excluded from military service and, in some places, from owning weapons...so they may have rationalized not doing something they were not permitted to do anyway. Then again, we may be looking at wishful thinking by would-be bashers and not the reality...except for the really loudmouth oxygen thieves like the Anti-Defamation Laague, few Jews I know oppose gun ownership, and also few gays. We might be buying into the anti propaganda more than seeing reality.

 

[StonerStudent]

Most LGBT, are like most people they believe what they read in the press. The mainstream LGBT groups [HRC,GLAAD etc] are very tried to the Dems. And of course don't really know what to do about the Pistols and are hoping we just go away. Most str8 gunowners are ok with us as gunowners. but get all screwed up with the GAY ADGENDA stuff and think that we are just trying to get guns for gay people only [really] I am out on another board and most are freindly, some are not

 

[spacemanspiff]

What else would explain Jason Alexander's success?

i suppose we should determine how 'success' is defined....
kfc commercials dont quite spell 'successful career' in my book.

 

[Sean Smith]

Sadly, THR is the exception, not the rule, when it comes to internet forums being relatively gay or minority friendly. I was threatened with getting booted from a major gun board because I complained about how the site tolerated folks who made posts fantasizing about beating up gays. I'm not gay, and I don't even know (or more accurately, know that I know ) anybody who is, but I don't like hanging around thuggish morons. The mods somehow took exception to that fact and threatened to boot me.

Would it surprise you that the gay-basher guy is still there (at least last I looked, which ain't often), and I'm the one who left?

Bottom line is, the folks who objectively need guns the most (women, gays, jews, etc.) are most likely to be alienated by the major political pary that, at least in theory, supports RKBA, and are most likey to encounter offensive behavior from the "gun community." Plain and simple truth, and it sucks.

 

[MrAcheson]

Frankly I think most gay and jewish groups are anti-RKBA by association. Both tend to vote Democrat.

I think you will find the Jews drifting towards the right more and more as the left enforces societal secularization. With that drift will come changes in the Jewish organizations' political outlook. I know several socially conservative Jews (like my girlfriend's whole family) who are voting Republicans. Thou shalt vote Democrat is becoming a weaker 11th commandment by the day.

I don't see that change happening with the gay lobby though (although they might go libertarian) since the religious conservatives aren't going anywhere.

 

[Hutch]

Might also be: Jews and gays have been promised protection from abuse and guarantees of equitable treatment by The Guvmint. The Evil party is viewed as the party most disposed to greater government intervention and involvement. Therefore, they are safer, better protected, and more equitably treated when the Evil party hold power.

Another thought. The Evil party has a power base of a bunch of non-mainstream grievance groups, be they ethnic minorities, females, LGBT's, eco-extremists, homeless advocates, ad nauseum . The Stupid/Gutless party is less dependent on the support of such groups. Therefore, the place where ANY small victim-advocacy group gets attention and patronage is from the Evil party.

Just a thought, and I mean no offense to anyone in my very general characterizations above.

 

[Monkeyleg]

The gays I know who object to Republican/conservative policies have one major issue they object to: the refusal to acknowledge gay marriages. For some, it's a matter of principle, but for many it's a matter of economics.

For example, my wife's uncle lived with his boyfriend for over twenty years. They were as much, or more, "husband and wife" than many straight couples I know. Yet, when the boyfriend died, the uncle didn't receive any of the boyfriend's social security payments (they were both in their 60's) or any other monies that a widow or widower would receive.

This uncle, by the way, served with honor in Korea and is very familiar with guns.

 

[Joe Demko]

Which Evil Party did you mean? From my point of view, there is Evil Party D and there is Evil Party R. Both D and R are primarily concerned with increasing their level of control over my life. Neither of them is truly in favor of my right to bear arms and neither is truly in favor of real freedom for the citizens of this country.

 

[Dave Markowitz]

Jews in this country have traditionally been members of the Democrat party. This is in large measure due to the Democrats embracing immigrants more than the Republicans did, back in the late 19th/early 20th Centuries. Most Jews in the US are descended from immigrants who arrived during that period.

Also, Jews tended to settle in more urban settings, where firearms were not such a part of daily life. Thus, they developed a fear of them based on ignorance. This was only encouraged by the propaganda emanating from the Democrats.

Somehow, Ron in PA realized that the Democrat party was full of it, and developed a healthy interest in guns even though he lived in NY and was Jewish. Thankfully he and my mother got the heck out of that state before I was born. So he and I are a couple of armed-to-the-teeth Hebes who take Never Again a bit more seriously than most.

Thanks Dad!