Gelatin tests: Federal's new 10mm 180 gr JSP, plus a couple .357 hand loads

[chopinbloc]

10mm Federal 180 gr Vital Shok Trophy Bonded Jacketed Soft Point fired from 4.5" barrel EAA Witness into calibrated gelatin.

BB: 599.8 fps, 3.5"

Impact velocity: 1,270 fps
Penetration: 16.7"
Retained weight: 177.6 gr
Max expansion: 0.635"
Min expansion: 0.594"

Notes:

One petal was shed and left at about the 6.75" mark. I did not include denim because this is not a hollow point projectile and it is most likely to be used for hunting or animal defense. I doubt that denim would make any substantive difference in penetration or expansion.






.357 mag 125 gr Gold Dot over 14.0 gr AA9 Fired from 4" S&W Model 13 through four layers of denim into calibrated gelatin.

BB: 599.8 fps, 3.5"

Impact velocity: 1,037 fps
Penetration: 15.2"
Retained weight: 124.5 gr
Max expansion: 0.549"
Min expansion: 0.415"







.357 mag 158 gr JSP over 11.0 gr AA7 fired from 4" barrel S&W Model 13 into calibrated gelatin.

BB: 599.8 fps, 3.5"

Impact velocity: 1,035 fps
Penetration: 19.4"
Retained weight: 157.4 gr
Max expansion: 0.467"
Min expansion: 0.361"

 

[Blueduck]

180 at 1,270 FPS. Federal now knows how to make real 10mm ammo. This makes me happy

 

[tommy.duncan]

Great Videos!
Thanks

 

[chopinbloc]

My pleasure.

 

[psyshack]

My G20 and G31 made my .357 revolvers truly obsolete. 9mm is now a mouse gun load. And thank God my M&P .45 likes .45 Super loads or it would be obsolete.

 

[chopinbloc]

I think that might be going a bit far. The 10mm and .357 mag are certainly comparable in terms of energy but the .357 mag offers higher sectional density, which is necessary for deep penetration while the 10mm can produce larger expanded bullets, which is beneficial to a wider wound channel. For general defensive use and most hunting either cartridge would probably be suitable, assuming you choose an appropriate bullet at the right velocity. For hunting larger animals or large animal defense, the .357 might have a slight edge. It is also useful in that you can carry a lever action chambered in the same caliber as your revolver. It is true that you can get a 10mm carbine that accepts Glock magazines but they are heavier and more expensive and you cannot load them without a magazine or top off. That's not to say that any particular arrangement is superior. I'm just trying to offer a counter point to the idea that .357 is entirely obsolete.

Likewise, 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP all offer their own list of pros and cons and when it comes to personal defense, all three perform similarly with modern JHP.

 

[Nom de Forum]

Depending on the person a 10mm might make .357 obsolete for them, but chopinbloc makes some excellent points that certainly show advantages the .357 has over the 10mm. BTW I carry a G20 in the boonies.

 

[chopinbloc]

Yeah, I carry a Witness P in 10mm loaded with 200 gr XTP. If bears are a higher probability I carry a Herter's SA .44 mag loaded with soft points. If I'm good, my wife might buy me a G20 SF or a 629.

 

[CaliCoastie]

im good with a 357, or if im worried about big bears a 44mag. for two legged stuff id be fine with my 40.

 

[murf]

why are you comparing a 10mm with a 38 special? using real 357 magnum loads would be a much better way to go.

murf

 

[chopinbloc]

I'm not. Those are just the two tests I did this week. If you check my profile, you'll find a lot more threads I've started from previous tests.

 

[murf]

my comment was not a dig on your tests. it was for the benefit of psyshack and the "obsolete" comment about the 357 magnum.

your reloads are running at 38 special +p velocities. just trying to bring that point to his attention.

i applaud your efforts.

murf

 

[chopinbloc]

Gotcha. My bad. People often assume I am attempting to compare the loads in a given test, which is a reasonable assumption, I think.

 

[murf]

agreed. especially when most of the responses in this thread did that comparison.

murf

 

[greenmtnguy]

I think it is quite reasonable to have some 357Mag loads that are subsonic - much less painful on the ears to shoot if you have to shoot in a defensive situation and/or indoors. And, for many uses, I think that will work well, and be quicker to be on target for followup shot(s) if needed.

 

[Nom de Forum]

Yeah, I carry a Witness P in 10mm loaded with 200 gr XTP. If bears are a higher probability I carry a Herter's SA .44 mag loaded with soft points. If I'm good, my wife might buy me a G20 SF or a 629.

I carry the G20SF not the original G20. The difference in frame size makes the G20SF much more comfortable for my average size hands. Unless you have large hands I think you will feel the same. The only guys I know who really think the the original G20 is comfortable are over 6' tall with long fingers. I don't kid myself I have a pistol that is great for grizzly bear defense, but it is very good for the more likely encounters with two-legged predators in the boonies and has a greater amount of power than a .40 for the cougars and black bears we have here.

 

[murf]

grreenmtnguy,

i totally agree with you. the beauty of the 357 magnum cartridge is versatility. loaded from mild to wild and anywhere in between, it will handle most any situation a mid-caliber round may encounter: hunting, self defense, plinking, practice, competition.

i will always have a 357 magnum chambered handgun in my stable.

murf

 

[ohioshooter]

I carry a Coonan .357 mag and the 158 gr Coonan self defense ammo and it's trucking right along at 1400 fps. That's what's advertised and if I came upon so called bear I have 8 rounds to see if it would suffice.

 

[481]

I always enjoy these tests. Thanks for doing them chopinbloc.

 

[chopinbloc]

I don't kid myself I have a pistol that is great for grizzly bear defense, but it is very good for the more likely encounters with two-legged predators in the boonies and has a greater amount of power than a .40 for the cougars and black bears we have here.

Well said. Let's face it: no handgun is very good for large bears. 10mm or .357 can both be a heck of a lot better for mountain lion and black bear than 9mm, .40 S&W, or .45 ACP.

 

[ApacheCoTodd]

I wouldn't have known about this round without this post. Thanks Chopper.

Anyone know how these act in a Delta Elite?

 

[Panzerschwein]

My G20 and G31 made my .357 revolvers truly obsolete. 9mm is now a mouse gun load. And thank God my M&P .45 likes .45 Super loads or it would be obsolete.

You're kidding, right?

 

[2zulu1]

I enjoy reading about these kinds of tests and enjoy doing them, especially checking for JHP bullet integrity when pushing 10mm velocities.

The 125/158gr tests may have been fired from .357mag casings, but neither is representative of .357mag velocities to be used in gel testing. The factory equivalent loading for .357mag/125gr is 17.7grs of 2400 powder.

While your AA#9 loading is within Speer #14 specs, it doesn't make minimum powder weight using Sierra published data. Sierra powder range is 15.5grs-17.9grs, I use 17.0grs for 125gr Golden Sabers.

Standard 4" MV for 125s, including factory Gold Dots, is 1450fps.

A number of slower burning powders than AA#7 will achieve the standard 4" 158gr/1250fps and they would better represent bullet capabilities.

FWIW, a rancher who lives near me recently took a 320lb black bear using .357mag 180gr WFN ~1300fps; one shot, one kill.