Zendude
Member
In general, which combination of light vs heavier bullet with fast vs slower burning powder produced lowest felt recoil (e.g. light bullet with slow powder)? Which powders do you recommend for a fast burn and slow burn in 38 special?
General guide for low recoil loads
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oneounceload
member
Felt recoil is subjective and has more to do with gun fit.
Actual recoil is a math problem where lightest bullet going the slowest will give the least amount of recoil
Actual recoil is a math problem where lightest bullet going the slowest will give the least amount of recoil
The only .38 Special that ever "punished" my hand was in a Smith and Wesson Airweight. For that reason, I'd recommend a heavier weight gun. In most medium to larger framed guns, all .38 Specials are pretty tame.
That being said, I like 140-158 grain cast bullets over a starting charge of Ramshot Trueblue.
That being said, I like 140-158 grain cast bullets over a starting charge of Ramshot Trueblue.
TimSr
Member
When you are looking at load data, you will notice that light bullets list heavier powder charges. It's a wash. Down loading to a lower pressure level will reduce recoil. Bullet weight makes no difference if you load to the same pressure level.
"in general" a heavy bullet and a fast powder will produce a low velocity low recoil load while still producing a high enough pressure to allow for good combustion of the powder (at least 8-10,000 psi). If the pressure is much below that, the burn will be inconsistent with unburned flakes, inconsistent velocities, sooty cases and lots of smoke. With that as a starting point, if you use a lighter weight bullet, you will need to increase the powder charge to get the same pressure. This will bring the velocity up and consequently the recoil.
If you are looking for a low recoil load to punch paper, that's one thing. If you are trying to make a defensive round or a hunting round, there is no free lunch, the "hitting power" of a light fast bullet vs. a heavier slower bullet will not differ much and getting to that same combination with a fast vs. slow powder will matter even less.
That's "in general". For specifics, you'll need to provide more information.
If you are looking for a low recoil load to punch paper, that's one thing. If you are trying to make a defensive round or a hunting round, there is no free lunch, the "hitting power" of a light fast bullet vs. a heavier slower bullet will not differ much and getting to that same combination with a fast vs. slow powder will matter even less.
That's "in general". For specifics, you'll need to provide more information.
BCRider
Member
I wondered about this too at one point. But it turned out that "fast" vs "slow" for handgun powders is pretty much a non starter with cartridges like .38Special.
Where "fast" and "slow" come into play is with things like Magnums where the case is filled with powder. In such situations you want the powder to not all burn at once so that the bullet gets a chance to begin moving out of the casing and part way down the bore so the effective chamber volume is increasing at the same time as the powder is burning. This gives us the gas volume needed overall to get the bullets up to a proper Magnum muzzle velocity but by stretching out the burn over an extra millisecond or two it allows time for the bullet to move a short ways down the bore. And that allows the pressure to not climb to as high a peak and blow up the gun.
From all this bullet moving a little to bullets moving somewhat down the bore you can see that the timing is on the order of milliseconds or possibly even microseconds. So "fast" vs "slow" powders means zip all to our felt recoil in our hands.
What you will find is that some of the fast powders work best in light loads because they tend to;
a- push the case walls out more sharply so they seal well and avoid blowback along the chambers and staining the outside of the cases and
b-tend to not be as position sensitive for proper and consistent burning.
And that's why you won't see any "slower" powders being suggested for reduced handgun loads. And within the fast powders used for such things some have a little better reputation for burning consistently better than others despite the low peak pressure. Some powders need some significant amount of pressure to burn correctly. When not loaded to that amount they can burn a little or a lot in a random way to where the report and recoil become variable. Needless to say accuracy goes down the flusher when the ammo behaves like that.
Powders I've used which work well in lower pressure loads are Bullseye and Titegroup. There will be some others reported soon by the other members. But these are the two I've worked with so far for my .38Spl reloading and I know they work well with small amounts of powder. And in fact even running under the minimum starting loads by a little has shown that they still burn consistently.
I picked up two lbs of IMR SR4756 recently. It's also listed in the load data on the Hodgdon web site as suitable for .38Spl. But in reading around and learning from a shooting buddy that loaded some rounds with this powder it's not a good one for lighter "cowboy action" type loads. Yet on the burn rate chart it's close to the others. So burn rate isn't the only factor. You need to find out how well it performs with small volumes in big cases like we have with revolver cartridges.
So I'll end up loading the relatively high pressure 9mm and .45acp with it instead and free up my Bullseye and Titegroup for my .38Spl loading where the case volume has little or no effect on the consistency of the pressure.
Don't go too light with the bullet. I run with 130gn cast LRNFP bullets for my cowboy action loads and most of us locally use the same bullet. There are some 105's but with the lighter bullet comes the easier job of moving it out of the casing and down the bore. And with minimal loads of even the better powders for low pressure shooting this may result in the pressure dropping to where you get some inconsistency in the reports and recoil force. And that means you need to up the amount of powder to raise the pressure back to where the powder burns correctly and consistently. This trait is typically seen in the reloading data where as the bullets get lighter the data shows heavier starting loads. The clue is in the pressure shown with those loads. You'll find that it's the same even as the bullet weight drops and the powder weight rises. So the key is finding a load where the pressure is "high enough.
A 130gn bullet pushed by around 2.6gns of Bullseye or 2.8gns of Titegroup is the load used by a friend of mine. She's quite recoil shy and these loads are working well for her. In the rifle loads her hubby is loading up another .2 to .3gns in .357Mag cases to ensure the bullets make it downrange correctly due to the slightly larger case volume. These values are a little under the starting loads found in the Cowboy Action data in Hodgdon's main reloading data book of 3.1gns for Tightgroup. But they are working well for her here at near sea level. Someone else is running even less Titegroup with a 105gn bullet (I've heard that it was 2.6gns). His loads sound quite variable and he's dancing on the tightrope for low pressure and possible trouble with stuck bullets in the bore. So that's TOO light a combination.
For myself I tend to like to feel like I'm actually shooting a proper gun so my own .38's for cowboy action use 3.6gns of Titegroup. By the regular reloading data this is the starting load. But from the cowboy action data it's a mid range load where the starting load is listed at 3.1gns. This is still a pretty mild load but it's got SOME zip to it. And it ensures that my bullets remain under the SASS speed limits for use in cowboy action.
Hope this helps you out.
I run .357Mag cases on my rifle rounds and up the charge by .2gns to make up for the added case volume and how that affects the pressure. Same bullet. From the rifle they feel only a hair more kicky than a rimfire with this load.
Where "fast" and "slow" come into play is with things like Magnums where the case is filled with powder. In such situations you want the powder to not all burn at once so that the bullet gets a chance to begin moving out of the casing and part way down the bore so the effective chamber volume is increasing at the same time as the powder is burning. This gives us the gas volume needed overall to get the bullets up to a proper Magnum muzzle velocity but by stretching out the burn over an extra millisecond or two it allows time for the bullet to move a short ways down the bore. And that allows the pressure to not climb to as high a peak and blow up the gun.
From all this bullet moving a little to bullets moving somewhat down the bore you can see that the timing is on the order of milliseconds or possibly even microseconds. So "fast" vs "slow" powders means zip all to our felt recoil in our hands.
What you will find is that some of the fast powders work best in light loads because they tend to;
a- push the case walls out more sharply so they seal well and avoid blowback along the chambers and staining the outside of the cases and
b-tend to not be as position sensitive for proper and consistent burning.
And that's why you won't see any "slower" powders being suggested for reduced handgun loads. And within the fast powders used for such things some have a little better reputation for burning consistently better than others despite the low peak pressure. Some powders need some significant amount of pressure to burn correctly. When not loaded to that amount they can burn a little or a lot in a random way to where the report and recoil become variable. Needless to say accuracy goes down the flusher when the ammo behaves like that.
Powders I've used which work well in lower pressure loads are Bullseye and Titegroup. There will be some others reported soon by the other members. But these are the two I've worked with so far for my .38Spl reloading and I know they work well with small amounts of powder. And in fact even running under the minimum starting loads by a little has shown that they still burn consistently.
I picked up two lbs of IMR SR4756 recently. It's also listed in the load data on the Hodgdon web site as suitable for .38Spl. But in reading around and learning from a shooting buddy that loaded some rounds with this powder it's not a good one for lighter "cowboy action" type loads. Yet on the burn rate chart it's close to the others. So burn rate isn't the only factor. You need to find out how well it performs with small volumes in big cases like we have with revolver cartridges.
So I'll end up loading the relatively high pressure 9mm and .45acp with it instead and free up my Bullseye and Titegroup for my .38Spl loading where the case volume has little or no effect on the consistency of the pressure.
Don't go too light with the bullet. I run with 130gn cast LRNFP bullets for my cowboy action loads and most of us locally use the same bullet. There are some 105's but with the lighter bullet comes the easier job of moving it out of the casing and down the bore. And with minimal loads of even the better powders for low pressure shooting this may result in the pressure dropping to where you get some inconsistency in the reports and recoil force. And that means you need to up the amount of powder to raise the pressure back to where the powder burns correctly and consistently. This trait is typically seen in the reloading data where as the bullets get lighter the data shows heavier starting loads. The clue is in the pressure shown with those loads. You'll find that it's the same even as the bullet weight drops and the powder weight rises. So the key is finding a load where the pressure is "high enough.
A 130gn bullet pushed by around 2.6gns of Bullseye or 2.8gns of Titegroup is the load used by a friend of mine. She's quite recoil shy and these loads are working well for her. In the rifle loads her hubby is loading up another .2 to .3gns in .357Mag cases to ensure the bullets make it downrange correctly due to the slightly larger case volume. These values are a little under the starting loads found in the Cowboy Action data in Hodgdon's main reloading data book of 3.1gns for Tightgroup. But they are working well for her here at near sea level. Someone else is running even less Titegroup with a 105gn bullet (I've heard that it was 2.6gns). His loads sound quite variable and he's dancing on the tightrope for low pressure and possible trouble with stuck bullets in the bore. So that's TOO light a combination.
For myself I tend to like to feel like I'm actually shooting a proper gun so my own .38's for cowboy action use 3.6gns of Titegroup. By the regular reloading data this is the starting load. But from the cowboy action data it's a mid range load where the starting load is listed at 3.1gns. This is still a pretty mild load but it's got SOME zip to it. And it ensures that my bullets remain under the SASS speed limits for use in cowboy action.
Hope this helps you out.
I run .357Mag cases on my rifle rounds and up the charge by .2gns to make up for the added case volume and how that affects the pressure. Same bullet. From the rifle they feel only a hair more kicky than a rimfire with this load.
OP
OP
Zendude
Member
Mainly looking for a load just to punch paper at the range. I use either 125 grain or 156 grain Ranier plated bullets.
OP
OP
Zendude
Member
BCRider,
Thanks for the info. I usually use Bullseye so it sounds like I don't need to change powders.
Thanks for the info. I usually use Bullseye so it sounds like I don't need to change powders.
Sunray
Member
Pistol powder tends to be fast, not slow. Light target loads use fast powders like Bullseye, Unique, et al with moderate weight bullets. Usually 148ish cast or swaged.
Not all of them?
Yes. they are faster than rifle but a powder like H110 is not considered fast.
There is sort of a App for that
Plug in numbers and this will give you an idea but read the disclaimer
http://www.handloads.com/calc/recoil.asp
Dudedog
Contributing Member
There are "fast" pistol powders and "slow" pistol powders, say Red Dot and 296
Compared to rifle powders pistol powders are fast, compared to say powders for 120mm tank gun or 16" navel gun powders rifle powders are fast.
The fast slow question is for the difference in powders that are suitable for that cartridge. There is a different feel to say a 1050 fps with 125gr bullet in a 9mm with Titegroup/Bullseye/Promo than with say WSF/CFE Pistol/Autocomp. Same muzzle energy just a different feel to the recoil impluse. Different people may prefer one or the others "feel"
The sure way to reduce recoil is to reduce muzzle energy.
I can feel the difference between my 9mm target 125gr 9mm loads at say 1030 to 1050 fps and the heavier ones at 1100.
Not so much between powders with the same vel and bullet weight, but different powders do make a noticable difference.
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