If you are loading the same bullet for the same speed, are you better off using a fast burning powder or slow burning powder? Is one easier on your barrel and brass. Does the speed of burn effect the type of recoil you feel or accuracy? Is fast or slow more accurate generally or does it make any difference at all?
Fast or Slow powder?
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Peter M. Eick
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My opinion, based upon my guns (revolvers and autoloaders), is......
Slower tends to be more accurate then faster. My conclusion is that slower powders tend to take more powder for the same speed and usually fill the case more fully and drop more consistently.
Just my opinion though......
edited to add comment on handguns.
Slower tends to be more accurate then faster. My conclusion is that slower powders tend to take more powder for the same speed and usually fill the case more fully and drop more consistently.
Just my opinion though......
edited to add comment on handguns.
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Zak Smith
Member
We talking rifle or pistol?
For the same bullet velocity, the slow powder will always hit a lower pressure maximum, which is good for safety margin. However, if the load is too low-pressure, you won't get complete burn and unburned powder will end up in gun (especially in autoloading handguns).
For IPSC-type competition with uncompensated pistols, it's pretty common to use a moderate to fast powder which can still safely "make" the power factor (PF) desired. So in .45ACP, you see a lot of Bullseye, Clays, N310, N320, and Titegroup being used; similar for .40SW.
-z
For the same bullet velocity, the slow powder will always hit a lower pressure maximum, which is good for safety margin. However, if the load is too low-pressure, you won't get complete burn and unburned powder will end up in gun (especially in autoloading handguns).
For IPSC-type competition with uncompensated pistols, it's pretty common to use a moderate to fast powder which can still safely "make" the power factor (PF) desired. So in .45ACP, you see a lot of Bullseye, Clays, N310, N320, and Titegroup being used; similar for .40SW.
-z
stans
Member
Generally speaking, the less air space remaining in the case, the greater the accuracy potential. So slower burning powders should provide the greatest accuracy. That being said, why is it that tiny charges of Bullseye in relatively large cases such as 38 Special and 45 ACP produce incredibly accurate ammo? I guess the axiom "for every rule there is an exception" holds true in reloading as well.
Thirties
Member
Surely,
I strongly advise you to read some books on the subject.
Of the answers you've received only Zak is giving you accurate information. But even his reply doesn't answer your question This subject shouldn't be taken lightly, and much is not subject to opinion.
Loading is not dangerous, but uninformed loading can be very dangerous.
A good loading manual is the Speer and the Hornady. Go to Amazon.com and check out the Philip B. Sharp book called Complete Guide to Handloading (used). This 50 year old book is the bible of loading books. Also check out the older editions of the NRA Reloading book at Amazon (circa 1980s).
I am still learning myself, so I will not presume to give you a factual answer. Be careful when you get off the cuff opinions on these computer bulletin boards. Do your own homework. Get knowledge. It's all in books.
I strongly advise you to read some books on the subject.
Of the answers you've received only Zak is giving you accurate information. But even his reply doesn't answer your question This subject shouldn't be taken lightly, and much is not subject to opinion.
Loading is not dangerous, but uninformed loading can be very dangerous.
A good loading manual is the Speer and the Hornady. Go to Amazon.com and check out the Philip B. Sharp book called Complete Guide to Handloading (used). This 50 year old book is the bible of loading books. Also check out the older editions of the NRA Reloading book at Amazon (circa 1980s).
I am still learning myself, so I will not presume to give you a factual answer. Be careful when you get off the cuff opinions on these computer bulletin boards. Do your own homework. Get knowledge. It's all in books.
careful
I wouldnt think of making a load that I dont find in a published manual but many times they list 6 or more different powders that can be used in the same cartridge to achieve the same velocity so I was wondering if people generally use a slower one to start with or try the faster powders. Is there a brand that seems to provide better results as far as consistency goes? The load I put in my 243, 35 grains of IMR 3031 leaves alot of empty space in the cartridge but its right in the middle of the range given in the newest sierra loading manual.
I wouldnt think of making a load that I dont find in a published manual but many times they list 6 or more different powders that can be used in the same cartridge to achieve the same velocity so I was wondering if people generally use a slower one to start with or try the faster powders. Is there a brand that seems to provide better results as far as consistency goes? The load I put in my 243, 35 grains of IMR 3031 leaves alot of empty space in the cartridge but its right in the middle of the range given in the newest sierra loading manual.
Zak Smith
Member
Let's see if I can answer the rest of your questions:
Q. Are you better off using a fast burning powder or slow burning powder?
A. Depends what you want, really. There are a lot of variables in play, besides what you want to accomplish.
Q. Is one easier on your barrel and brass?
Brass will "live" longer with loads that have less max pressure. This is because they will stretch less each fire -> resize cycle. As far as I know, the killer for barrels is bullet velocity and burn temperature. The more overbore a cartridge is (roughly the more powder volume per caliber diameter), the faster the barrel will wear out at the throat area. Likewise, a faster bullet velocity will wear the barrel faster. This is "throat erosion." This is why a .30-30 barrel will last basically forever, but a 7mm Rem Mag will lose its accuracy "edge" after a couple thousand rounds. I know these comments don't speak directly to fast vs. slow powder and barrel life.
Q. Does the speed of burn effect the type of recoil you feel?
Arguably yes. The overall intertia imparted to the gun will be related to the muzzle velocity of the bullet and the mass of the gaseous ejecta (e.g. from the burned powder). The more powder mass, the more gaseous ejecta. If the gaseous ejecta and bullet mass and velocity were the same for two loads, the one with the slower powder would probably feel like more of a "push" and the one with the faster powder would probably feel sharper.
In noncompensated autoloading handguns, most competitors in action sports think that a faster recoil impulse from a faster powder is faster to recover from and regain the sight picture.
Q. Accuracy?
Others have addressed accuracy to some extent. The general rule of using a powder for which the load will almost fill the case is good.
Other issues with regard to powder choice are:
. Does it meter will in your powder measure?
. Is its behavior "linear" in the region you're using it?
. Does its burn rate vary much with temperature changes?
For what it's worth, I get very consistent results from the powder measure using the Winchester ball-type powders (W748, 760), but they almost always have more velocity standard deviation and they do not reach as far as the extruded stick-type powders such as 4064, 4895, Varget, etc.
-z
Q. Are you better off using a fast burning powder or slow burning powder?
A. Depends what you want, really. There are a lot of variables in play, besides what you want to accomplish.
Q. Is one easier on your barrel and brass?
Brass will "live" longer with loads that have less max pressure. This is because they will stretch less each fire -> resize cycle. As far as I know, the killer for barrels is bullet velocity and burn temperature. The more overbore a cartridge is (roughly the more powder volume per caliber diameter), the faster the barrel will wear out at the throat area. Likewise, a faster bullet velocity will wear the barrel faster. This is "throat erosion." This is why a .30-30 barrel will last basically forever, but a 7mm Rem Mag will lose its accuracy "edge" after a couple thousand rounds. I know these comments don't speak directly to fast vs. slow powder and barrel life.
Q. Does the speed of burn effect the type of recoil you feel?
Arguably yes. The overall intertia imparted to the gun will be related to the muzzle velocity of the bullet and the mass of the gaseous ejecta (e.g. from the burned powder). The more powder mass, the more gaseous ejecta. If the gaseous ejecta and bullet mass and velocity were the same for two loads, the one with the slower powder would probably feel like more of a "push" and the one with the faster powder would probably feel sharper.
In noncompensated autoloading handguns, most competitors in action sports think that a faster recoil impulse from a faster powder is faster to recover from and regain the sight picture.
Q. Accuracy?
Others have addressed accuracy to some extent. The general rule of using a powder for which the load will almost fill the case is good.
Other issues with regard to powder choice are:
. Does it meter will in your powder measure?
. Is its behavior "linear" in the region you're using it?
. Does its burn rate vary much with temperature changes?
For what it's worth, I get very consistent results from the powder measure using the Winchester ball-type powders (W748, 760), but they almost always have more velocity standard deviation and they do not reach as far as the extruded stick-type powders such as 4064, 4895, Varget, etc.
-z
As a general rule I advise using the slowest powder that will give the desired velocity. This will be a load that is 100% loading density (case full) but may be a load not listed in a manual. Manuals rarely list powders that are too slow to give near-max pressure.
For example, say you want a 3000 fps load in a .223 with a 50 grain bullet, to conserve barrel life. The Hornady manual lists loads with powders no slower than H380, at velocities up to 3400 fps. The top H380 load is a full case and goes 3300 FPS. They list it as "Maximum", but I'd bet it's not; it's just all that will fit.
If 3000 FPS is enough, I'd try a case full of a powder even slower than H380, Like WW760 or H414. 4350 even. Often these kind of loads give superb accuracy.
The detonation horror stories all involve REDUCED CHARGES of slow-burning powders, never full cases.
In a handgun, the same applies. 1250 FPS with a 250 good enough for your .44 Mag? Try 28 grains AA1680 (Surplus WC680 powder for the 7.62X39) in it. This is all that will fit.
Want a load in the 500 S&W magnum with my long-nose, .625" shank 640 grain bullet that goes 1300 FPS at max allowable (58,000 psi) pressure? Use 28 grains AA1680 for this. But if the same bullet at 900 FPS is more to your liking, try 38.2 grains of BLC-2 rifle powder. This slower load had an extreme spread of TWO fps for five shots. Most people would opt for a light charge of a fast-burner like Titegroup, but not me. Fast powders have higher pressure spikes than slow ones, and often gas cut and cause leading with cast slugs. The BLC-2 load shoots one-hole groups in a scoped gun.
Hope this helps.
JR
For example, say you want a 3000 fps load in a .223 with a 50 grain bullet, to conserve barrel life. The Hornady manual lists loads with powders no slower than H380, at velocities up to 3400 fps. The top H380 load is a full case and goes 3300 FPS. They list it as "Maximum", but I'd bet it's not; it's just all that will fit.
If 3000 FPS is enough, I'd try a case full of a powder even slower than H380, Like WW760 or H414. 4350 even. Often these kind of loads give superb accuracy.
The detonation horror stories all involve REDUCED CHARGES of slow-burning powders, never full cases.
In a handgun, the same applies. 1250 FPS with a 250 good enough for your .44 Mag? Try 28 grains AA1680 (Surplus WC680 powder for the 7.62X39) in it. This is all that will fit.
Want a load in the 500 S&W magnum with my long-nose, .625" shank 640 grain bullet that goes 1300 FPS at max allowable (58,000 psi) pressure? Use 28 grains AA1680 for this. But if the same bullet at 900 FPS is more to your liking, try 38.2 grains of BLC-2 rifle powder. This slower load had an extreme spread of TWO fps for five shots. Most people would opt for a light charge of a fast-burner like Titegroup, but not me. Fast powders have higher pressure spikes than slow ones, and often gas cut and cause leading with cast slugs. The BLC-2 load shoots one-hole groups in a scoped gun.
Hope this helps.
JR
I'm working up hot loads in my 625 with Auto Rim cases. As I'd like to shoot 250 gr bullets I'm reading that slower powders are better for heavy bullets. For my light loads I'm using 231 under a 185 gr West Coast bullet. No manual lists more then 6.5 gr for 231 but I get excellent results with 7 gr.
Is there a criteria for determining how slow of a powder I can use? I have a bit of H-110, 4227, Re7, Benchmark and 322. Would these be suitable for 250 gr bullets in a 45 AR case? I was thinking of starting with 45 LC cowboy loads and very cautiously work my way up.
Any opinions or souces of information?
Thanks,
Burt
Is there a criteria for determining how slow of a powder I can use? I have a bit of H-110, 4227, Re7, Benchmark and 322. Would these be suitable for 250 gr bullets in a 45 AR case? I was thinking of starting with 45 LC cowboy loads and very cautiously work my way up.
Any opinions or souces of information?
Thanks,
Burt
redneck2
Member
I suspect...
companies list a variety of powders, because the reloader may have one of them on hand already
As an example, WW 231, Unique, AA5, and Universal Clays could all be used in a wide variety of pistol loads. I may want to use one for 3 different calibers I am loading, so the books give a variety.
Trying to pick the "perfect" load will drive you nuts. For any given caliber, there are hundreds of thousands of bullet/powder/case/primer combos
To shorten the search, start with Ken Water's "Pet Loads", or some of the handloading manuals give "most accurate". I always get the free manuals from the powder companies. HTH
Answer to above....the load manuals will give the "preferred" and appropriate range powders. There is no such thing as working up carefully unless you use a chronograph. By the time you see "pressure signs", your gun may be little pieces. Flattened primers may start showing at 70,000#. Many pistols are made to handle 12-15,000 psi. Then again, some handle 50,000# (.454 Casull for example)
45 AR has a case capacity of 22.92 grains of water. 45 ACP has a capacity of 22.87 grains. 45 Colt has 37.45 grains and is in a whole different league. Loads safe in the 45 Colt may destroy the 45 AR.
If you'e going to shoot obscure or obsolete, get a copy of "Handloader's Manual of Cartridge C onversions". Gives the scoop on everything that shoots.
companies list a variety of powders, because the reloader may have one of them on hand already
As an example, WW 231, Unique, AA5, and Universal Clays could all be used in a wide variety of pistol loads. I may want to use one for 3 different calibers I am loading, so the books give a variety.
Trying to pick the "perfect" load will drive you nuts. For any given caliber, there are hundreds of thousands of bullet/powder/case/primer combos
To shorten the search, start with Ken Water's "Pet Loads", or some of the handloading manuals give "most accurate". I always get the free manuals from the powder companies. HTH
Answer to above....the load manuals will give the "preferred" and appropriate range powders. There is no such thing as working up carefully unless you use a chronograph. By the time you see "pressure signs", your gun may be little pieces. Flattened primers may start showing at 70,000#. Many pistols are made to handle 12-15,000 psi. Then again, some handle 50,000# (.454 Casull for example)
45 AR has a case capacity of 22.92 grains of water. 45 ACP has a capacity of 22.87 grains. 45 Colt has 37.45 grains and is in a whole different league. Loads safe in the 45 Colt may destroy the 45 AR.
If you'e going to shoot obscure or obsolete, get a copy of "Handloader's Manual of Cartridge C onversions". Gives the scoop on everything that shoots.
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