geocaching targets

[CA Raider]

well i try to look at things from all points of view.

so on the positive side ... there is an Olympic sport called the Biathlon. a strange mixture of crosscountry skiing and rifle shooting. so right there you have something that's similar to what you are proposing. they ski from target to target ... then shoot. and that idea became an Olympic contest.

there is also paintball. and before you complain that paintball is a kids game - I haven't done it myself - those paintball rifles are whacking out paintballs at high velocities. so if you desire is to practice tactics in a woodland setting - paintball already exists. and it exists in many forms from simple to very complex. so that is also a possibility. but paintball equipment is harmless, relatively quiet, and the games are played on a designated area.

otherwise I will stick by what I said earlier. if you go running around public lands shooting at random targets - someone will hear you. that is what shots do - they attract attention. and some unknown third party is going to wonder what on earth you are doing. and sooner or later it will get reported to a LEO somewhere. and then they will wonder what you are doing.

maybe you care - OR maybe you don't care. that's up to you.

CA R

 

[henschman]

I'm glad you got the ball rolling on this taliv... I am a big fan of shooting activities that promote practical shooting under true field conditions. It would be great if we got enough of these going where if you were on vacation someplace, you could look up one of them close by and go shoot it. Ayway, I joined the forum... I will see if I can get anything set up here in OK.

Along the lines of other true field style shooting activities, CA Raider mentioned biathlon... they have been doing a center fire biathlon in the desert outside Pecos, TX for 14 years, called the Pecos Run 'n Gun in the Sun. www.pecosrunandgun.com. Some of us that help RO the Pecos event have put together our own run 'n gun events. The guys at Battle Road in Buckholts, TX do the biannual Zombie Destruction Run 'n Gun: www.battleroadusa.com. A buddy and I set up Oklahoma Run 'n Gun earlier this year, had our first event in July, and have another one planned for January. www.okrunngun.com.

Some cautioned us about the liability involved in organizing such a non-traditional shooting event, but we went through with it and it has been very fun, rewarding, and educational.

 

[jcvibby]

68wj yes it is

 

[taliv]

ECVMatt, that sounds awesome! i'll definitely have to make it out there someday!

henchman, thanks! yep i think it's going to make for pretty fun shooting vacations. a little camping, a little hiking, a little shooting. I'm sure it will be slow getting started, but maybe someday...

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

Seems we'd just have to treat shooters as though they are adults. We all know the safety rules. The information provided should come out and state things like: "Do not fire toward the west at this target. There is a ranch nearby". Whoever places the target needs to try and make certain there is sufficient backstop.

I think the liability concerns would be different if, say, one owned several acres of land somewhere and set up their own "geotarget" range. Whether run as a business or on personal property, the liability concerns are much easier to define and deal with simply because you own every aspect...the land, the targets, how you lay it out, access, rules, etc.

In such a case, you could probably set it up with whatever legal disclaimers are standard for such a thing.

However, when one does NOT own the property and is NOT in control of access, then the liability associated with deliberately setting up a course of fire somewhere becomes more difficult and involved. Setting up a target, leaving it in place, and inviting all and sundry to find the targets and shoot them on property not one's own just sounds more difficult and involved, legally.

Consider this:

Private property: Controlled access (it's private property), rules posted, targets maintained and not moved about, course of fire controlled such that adequate downrange protection is in place, liability clause in effect. A shooter then injures himself or kills some farmer's livestock because they didn't follow the rules: shooter is held responsible. A court battle is much easier to deal with when all the controls and legal disclaimers are in place.

Non-private property: Set up target and leave unattended for periods of time. Ensure adequate downrage protection is in place. Invite unknown numbers of people from all backgrounds to shoot the target. Target gets moved. Shooter kills some livestock because of this. Farmer sues the shooter. Shooter goes to court and says "This target was set up and advertised by (taliv) as something that could be shot at and was supposed to be in a safe area." Taliv now becomes at least partly responsbile as a result.

The second example requires additional actions to be taken in order to ensure there is no undue liability. There have to be both adequate controls in place AND adequate legal protection in place in such an instance in order to protect those who set up geotargeting.

It's not enough to simply say "well, we'll just treat shooters as adults" because we all know that there are stupid and dangerous people out there who will gladly point the finger at someone else for their actions.

Maybe all these concerns can be addressed on the website. If so, then it's just a matter of finding suitable places and setting them up.

I'm dying to hear what taliv finds out about the liability concerns. I think this could really take off in a variety of places across the country, as more people get involved and this catches on.

 

[taliv]

strictly speaking, i'm not setting up the targets or inviting you to go shoot a specific one. it will be interesting to see what i find out, but i'm personally not expecting to have any more liability than craigslist or similar marketplaces. we'll see

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

Cool! Definately waiting to read about it.

 

[Hunter125]

How about welding steel plate to the side of an ammo can? Then you could leave your casing inside the can and there's the cache.
You could even weld a bullet trap on to make it a little safer.
Or a bullet trap that would drop the bullet straight into the box, then your bullet fragments are part of the cache.

 

[ECVMatt]

Here is my shooting spot, no worries about bothering anybody:



It is a one way road in and not very often traveled:

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

^^^^

You need a bigger berm, just to be on the safe side...

 

[taliv]

heh

that's an awesome place to shoot. sometimes i wish the rest of LA was like that

 

[Dave Rishar]

Possible legal issues aside, there are some practical ones that you hinted upon. I have a bit of experience with this.

A friend (yes, actually a friend and not me) lives out in the sticks, and his property is adjacent to a large spread of logging land. I believe, but am not positive, that shooting is allowed there. The area is used by shooters, hunters, and ATV enthusiasts depending on the season. He wanted a longer and more varied range than his 2 acres could support, so he took it upon himself to set up a few plates out in the back forty. Each target was set up to be shot down upon and was directly in front of a hill; additionally, he made sure that no roads passed between a shooting position and a target. As the individual distances ranged from ~100 to over 500 yards and were situated in the PNW's everpresent brush, he painted them white to make them more visible. That was his mistake.

Within a matter of weeks, most of the targets had been stolen. The ones that were not had been destroyed by what was either very powerful or very close ranged fire. These plates were generally used with .308 rifles and were not fragile. Whoever destroyed them brought something powerful and brought plenty of ammunition for it. I don't know who packs this sort of firepower specifically to vandalize things, but they exist in Mason County and they exist here in Kitsap as well, as one of our ranges unfortunately learned a few years back. Some folks around here will shoot at anything that looks interesting, and if it's worth shooting once, it's worth shooting fifty times apparently.

The second time, the targets were painted in subdued colors. The drawback is that you now need a spotter familiar with each target to talk you on to it, as you will never spot them on your own. The good news is that it's been a year or two since their installation and they haven't been molested yet.

Will this be an issue for your project? It might be, and it really sucks when something like this happens. My friend had received the steel for free and wasn't out any money, but it had been a lot of work to hump those plates out there and getting the replacements installed wasn't any easier.