Scout Biathlon

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BBroadside

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I have invented a new sport. Or rather, imagined it. It is called Scout Biathlon.

Summer Biathlon uses the same rifles (IIRC) as Nordic Biathlon, only with running instead of skiiing. Scout Biathlon combines Summer Biathlon with Foot Orienteering and metallic silhouette shooting, using short-barreled centerfire rifles with forward-mounted scopes.

In a really free-and-open environment (one where you could carry rifles over orienteering-type terrain), you'd just compass-and-map yourself from one shooting point to another. I'm picturing the targets as metallic silhouettes of game animals (paper would work too, I suppose). To give it an "action shooting" appeal, you could have a bunch of no-shoot silhouettes to appear as well.

Maybe each shooting point would have some sort of device which would cause several targets to appear when the shooter got into position; perhaps a lever would drop camouflage curtains away from covering the silhouettes. Several targets could appear simultaneously, preferably in the peripheries of the shooter's vision (necessitating perhaps an unrealistically-large berm?) The distance would be enough that the shooter would probably have use his scope to identify them (or the targets could be small). Shooting the targets from the wrong point would earn a penalty.

Imagine: you'd hike 5 km with a scout rifle on our back, compass and map in hand. The map point would say "from a sitting position, shoot the javelinas and rams, leave the birds alone". You'd find a cleverly disguised lever, or something like a garage door opener? Then you'd press it, and bunch of rams, javelinas, and turkey would appear, and you'd lose ten points for each time you shot a turkey or if you shot standing or prone. You'd lose points if you took more than 40 seconds to at that point. Then you'd run off to your next point, another 5 km away, where you could only shoot the turkeys. (A variation, with no levers but with the targets only visible from the exact spot you're supposed to shoot from, would also be interesting.)

In the above scenario, you'd probably have to have a range official accompany you to make sure you didn't get confused and fire at something with no backstop. The official would also do the scoring and time you if, as I imagine, time would be an important aspect.

In a smaller setting, I suppose you could begin with only orienteering, no shooting, and just navigate your way back to the shooting range.

I'd like to make it with as few rules as possible other than the usual safety rules. As far as rifles go, there would be no weight limit. (If you had to orienteer through no-gun territory, the officials could just make you carry weights equivalent to your rifle's weight.) If the targets were metallic, there would also be no caliber minimum. That way, the game would be self-regulating - people would want to carry real Jeff Cooper-style rifles because they are light and make the rams fall over.

Overweight "pseudo scouts" would be allowed to compete head to head with the petite weapons which actually match Jeff Cooper's requirements. If Cooper was right, people will decide that a few extra pounds on a rifle, to reduce the kick, add features, etc., just isn't worth it if you're doing actual scouting with your shooting. (As to the matter of glass: I don't know if you could structure the game so that scout scopes just plain work better, or if you'd have to ban conventional scopes. I'm pretty naive when it comes to scopes.)
 
I just thought of a new variant. In this variant, you have to have the rifle on your back until you get to the pre-shooting point. That is the point you would navigate to. At the pre-shooting point, there would be some simple instructions about how to get to the shooting point, which would be maybe 20 meters away. On that little jaunt you'd have your rifle at the ready. Scoring would encourage you to go from moving, to acquiring the target, to putting your reticle on it, to shooting, in the shortest time possible. That would cause other scout rifle features (the fast-action shooting sling, both-eye-open shooting) to come into play.
 
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New variant: when you shoot the target, a remote-controlled camera right next to the target snaps a picture of you. Judges award or subtract points for how how well you have taken cover. (Probably "lose" a few cameras this way but I think it would be a cool feature.)
 
Adding to Broadsides ideas; at the "orienteering point", the accompanying RO could start the timer and the next "shooting" phase would be timed like an IDPA match. Complete the phase using cover and whatever weapons you have to achieve the shooting task in the quickest and most accurate way. I don't really understand orienteering, but I suppose it is other than an all out race? Perhaps a "par time of x to get from each shooting point to shooting point, and a penalty for getting lost and not making par time?

This sounds great, but would take a good bit of land. Also, most shooters are not orienteering fit, nor are most fit people shooters. I say this as a former summer biathlon competitor. In theory a great sport, but one that self limited itself into obscurity. I suppose orienteering may not be as physically demanding? When can we play?
 
I gather that there are orienteering contests, even foot orienteering ones, for older competitors as well. (I fully intend to do something to trick myself into staying in shape in my golden years, and if orienteering is it then so be it!) Proper navigating is more important than speed, although speed is important as well so the game designer might want to divide up the contest by age category.

I definitely like the idea of the timer. I haven't gotten my act (meaning money!) together enough to shoot IDPA but when I do I hope to get some more ideas. Also I bet there would be some good ideas from IPSC since those matches sometimes include a 3-gun even, which of course includes carbine shooting with AR-15s, Marlin Camp carbines, etc.
 
So, we have some consensus? An orienteering element to test map reading, compass use, etc. Perhaps with a par time so that it doesn't devolve into a cross-country race (let me explain, a decent runner can cover 5K on the road in perhaps 16-18 minutes, add 6 or 7 for terrain and you get 22-25 min, a typical shooter in good shape would be hard pressed to do the same in 35-40 min, there would be no way to make up the time lost running by shooting better without huge penalties for every point down; the balance between shooting and moving is very delicate and would potentially ruin the sport). At the designated shooting points the par time ends and a standard IDPA type stage beginns with a buzzer and timed shots on targets with time added for less than perfect shooting. At the end of the shooting the par time is started over with the competitor orienteering to the next shooting point?

A few problems present themselves:
1. This would be very difficult to officiate, a SO would have to accompany the shooter but not influence his direction finding etc. Another person would have to paste, score and reset targets (unless the shooter and RO do it before moving on, this has its own problems as it would have to be timed to a specific window to ensure equal recovery time, in essence you would be making the event into an interval work-out). After they have shot the course the shooters themselves could paste and score but if it is a 5 k course how many times would you want to cover it in a day??
2. The balance between shooting and running would make it impossible for the average shooter to compete. I think this is what killed summer biathlon, there are just not enough people who shoot well and run well. Par times for the running helps by limiting the loss and gain on the movement phase, but doesn't eliminate it.
3. Land availability would be a real problem. Most shooting clubs just don't have the land available to plot challenging courses on. Then there is the problem of safety, bullets travel a long ways and misses are always a possibility. When you add the factor of safety to long range moving a very large area, where the general public can be reliably exluded from, is needed. I don't know where this is possible in the East, unless state parks could be used, or perhaps state game lands, or military bases?

There are probably other problems that are game killers but I don't see them. It looks like a great competition , but would take herculean logistics to support. I doubt any group but the military could run such a match. Perhaps a military base would be interested in sponsoring something like this as it would be a remarkable training exercise, and they generally have the space and personnel to run such an enterprise.
 
Oh Rundownfid, you crushed all my hopes and dreams!
;)
But seriously, those are very sensible objections. My guess is that if something like this does happen, it will be:
(a) sponsored by the military, as you suggested,
(b) done on a completely "wildcat" basis, i.e., a couple of guys in seriously rural Wyoming or something, heavy use of the honor system, etc., or
(c) done on a "virtual" basis, 10 or 20 years in the future, with not-yet-invented technology (i.e., a flying robot hovers after you, times you, and penalizes errors ... I read science fiction, does it show?)

A more realistic idea would just be to join a club that features orienteering and shooting sports. Sort of prosaic I suppose, but we live in an imperfect world.
:cool:
Of course, if I joined, I would start pushing for an "Old Guy Decathlon" or septathlon or whatever, in which foot orienteering would be combined with sporting clays, USPSA 3-gun, etc.

Handicap those dastardly young fit guys by making them carry one ounce of lead weights for each year under 60....
 
So, for scout rifle owners - if you want to get some shooting out of your rifle, are there any good sports for it? I mean real ones, not just ones in my imagination?
 
I hate to be such a party pooper, but I don't think so. To my mind a scout rifle is sort of an all things to all men kind of weapon, like it or not specialization wins matches. If the shots are really long 300-1000 yds then a tactical rifle with a lot of glass is needed. If the shots are up close and personal 0-300 yds then it is hard to beat a gas .223. Speed is always gong to favor the semi-auto. Long distance will make the glass and barrel weight of a "sniper" rifle an acceptable trade off. Perhpas a jungle walk with moderate distance targets coming up unexpectedly for a brief time, but requiring moderate power to knock down?

I actually like the idea of the orienteering; and I think the military would benefit from making similar training exercises, but only they would have the space, manpower & logistics required. Too bad really...
 
Okay, having mulled this over I am beginning to think you are right. Still, I'd like to get scout rifles into contests somehow, so I'm thinking maybe a flatfooted "scouts only" rule might be workable, into two contests:

1. The rifle event of a USPSA 3-gun match
2. NRA High Power

That wouldn't meet my original goal (i.e. a match where scout rifles compete against other designs, and win) but it would at least allow scouts to compete against each other. Knit the two together into a biathlon (or a triathlon, with silhouette shooting) and you'd have something both the scout rifle and the old guys could shine at.
 
Summer Biathlon

BB,

Howdy (I followed your link from the Scout Forum to this topic!).

I ran Summer Biathlon back in the old days, 22s and running (usually a woods course). Good stuff.

Your idea reminds me of the Kenyathlon that David Kahn proposed back in the good old days. Let me find a link/description.

Andy
 
I like the general idea, tho the concept of biasing it so that only scouts can compete, or making some sort of artificial guidelines so that scouts can compete and win, sounds a bit,...well, artificial. If the scout concept is viable, then the guns should excel in use, not need rules to limit the competition. Having a combination of longer range (400-500yd) man or game silluettes, along with shorter, perhaps moving tagets, may be a valid field leveler. Short time, fast shots would also encourage handy, fast handling rifles.

Zach Smith has some info up about long range shoot and move field rifle competitions. They arent scout oriented, but are interesting, and use fairly practical field rifles. I believe there is different types of shoots and rifle catagories also. 2 shooters/spotters moving together, find the targets at the shooting positions, move on. Various unknown ranges. The targets are generally steel plates, so hits can be heard without anyone having to go to the targets.

http://demigodllc.com/articles/practical-long-range-rifle-shooting-equipment/

I'd be interested in either type. Perhaps I'm not properly schooled, but havent had any trouble with standard (non-scout) scopes on moving targets, like running rabbits etc. I prefer standard scopes. Does that disqualify me? I would think it should be open to whoever is capable of competing, without making artificial rules to bias in favor of a particular platform, just whats practical and works. Many matches have rules that arent reflective of real life use, and call themselves practical, or whatever. If it truly was practical, field, hunting, and scout rifles would likely excell, at least making a good showing against various guns and users. Making it open to common hunting class rifles will make it vastly more apealing to more people, and they are closest to scouts in use and concept.
 
Malamute, those are good points. An artificial feel would be exactly the kind of pitfall I would spend lots of effort trying to avoid, if I were actually designing this game.

A scout-rifles-only rule would make this game analogous to ICORE. ICORE is technically quite artificial - there is no real-world situation where a revolver is a fine choice and an autoloader is completely unusable. Yet I think ICORE doesn't have an artificial feel because its participants are enthusiasts. Does that make sense?

My original idea was to make a very natural set of rules that would mimic the huge variety of situations in which Cooper believed the scout rifle would be ideal. In other words, the main rule for the shooter would be: Be Safe. The rules for the course designer would be: Change It Up, Keep It Interesting.

I would love to see a conventional scope in head-to-head competition with an IER. I've never used one of the latter so my absolute certainty that using them will be an absolute epiphany ...
is probably misplaced.
:)

Okay, here is my new idea. Get a group of shooters together. Make them make a list of their six favorite rifle sports. Then each of them picks a rifle. Then you roll a standard six-sided die and everyone has to compete at that sport. Winner takes home everyone else's rifles.

Other than the last part, I seriously think that would be a good way to test what people really think makes a versatile rifle. And of course if you rolled the dice often enough you'd start to see who is correct.
 
The Keneyathlon

I'm new to the forum, referred here by Andy Langlois. In this discussion, he alluded to Mark Hamilton's and my Keneyathlon. Older folks may remember it from write-ups in the early and mid-1990s, when it was run at the NRA Whittington Center.

If anyone hereabouts is interested in what we developed, and conducted quite successfully, I'll be happy and thrilled to send the explanatory document as an e-mail attachment. Just drop a query note to me: [email protected].

Cheers, and thanks in advance for your interest,

David Nissen Kahn

Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas . . . semper sub ratione
 
I would like to see the Keneyathalon info posted on the forum, if thats possible, either from DNK, or someone that receives the info from him. I believe I've seen it in the past somewhere.


In any event, I would like to see more truly practical shooting sports, that wouldnt become a race gun event, and isnt so much raw time/speed oriented. I've shot some steel plate shoots with revolvers, even an SA, and did fairly well. I wasnt going to beat the real fast hands with DA's or those truly good with auto's, but was still in the upper 15%. I simply shoot revolvers better than autos, and carry one as a working gun daily as they are more flexible and powerful for my uses. Same for rifles. Black guns simply don't interest me (besides generally being clunky and awkward to carry on a regular basis), and I feel in most real life situations, they are not as much an advantage as many believe. Powerful accurate hits, quickly delivered, on targets of opportunity is what gets the job done. Winchester levers and bolt sporters are my main tools. A truly practical competition class, I believe, would level the field to a degree, and scouts, among others, would do very well. Not 10 targets in rapid succession, and frantic running from station to station, but some short quick work on several targets, some longer mid range stuff, and a few out around 300-500 yards, would be fun, and worthwhile. Some of the targets could be (simulated) horses, or vehicles, and required a certain power level to achieve good results, or require more shots with small rounds. Scenarios that have happened in real life would be interesting basis' for some stages. Just some thoughts.
 
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