Georgean guns; never fired, dropped once

[Deanimator]

OH! Well! I guess they will be needing some more foreign aid huh????

What they need is to be hip deep in Armbrusts. That's what the Germans did in Slovenia when it broke away from Serbia. They just dumped a seemingly endless supply of disposable anti-tank launchers on the Slovenians. The Serbs thought they were going to roll over the Slovenians with their armor (which included WWII era US tank destroyers). Instead, you couldn't turn on the evening news and NOT see footage of a Serb tank (usually two or three) brewing up. Between those and a LOT of AT mines, that portion of the Russian Army that can be counted on not to run away would be VERY busy.

 

[pistolero6869]

In photo #4 Burned weapons look at the bottom large weapon with cocking knob??? what is it? or what was it ?

 

[max popenker]

In photo #4 Burned weapons look at the bottom large weapon with cocking knob??? what is it? or what was it ?

Looks like Israeli Negev LMG to me.

 

[feedthehogs]

Might as well be looking at stacks of 100 dollar bills of tax payer money.

 

[Happiness Is A Warm Gun]

What they need is to be hip deep in Armbrusts. That's what the Germans did in Slovenia when it broke away from Serbia. They just dumped a seemingly endless supply of disposable anti-tank launchers on the Slovenians. The Serbs thought they were going to roll over the Slovenians with their armor (which included WWII era US tank destroyers). Instead, you couldn't turn on the evening news and NOT see footage of a Serb tank (usually two or three) brewing up. Between those and a LOT of AT mines, that portion of the Russian Army that can be counted on not to run away would be VERY busy.

Agreed. If you look at the photos from the coverage of the Russian Invasion, the Russian armor columns were on city streets in a line usually less than 2-3m apart.

Horrible armor tactics. They were not expecting a fight.

The US has huge surplus of TOW launchers (as infantry units transition to the Javelin) and the TOW 2b being a fly-over shoot down missile would have made short work of those armor columns.

TOW Launcher w/ integrated thermal sight = $280,000
TOW 2B missile = $50,000
Russian T-80 = $2.6 million US (est)
Inflicting an 8:1 cost:lost ratio on your enemy: Priceless

Ten million in ATGM and training could have eliminated nearly a billion in heavy armor.

 

[Drgong]

Would not suprise me if there was a big burning for photo ops, and yet a ton where shipped back to arm groups that moscow wants to arm, without it being linked directly to them.

Of course, I would gladly take the magazines, uppers, butstocks, and other importable items, sell them, and split it 50-50 with the russians.

 

[max popenker]

Horrible armor tactics. They were not expecting a fight

The last phrase IS the key to tactics shown.

The US has huge surplus of TOW launchers

The Russia also has a surplus of old, free-fall bombs in 250, 500 and 1000 kg variety; so, shall we in that case operate the NATO way and bomb the offenders back into the stone-age like NATO did with Serbia?

Do you really, REALLY think that USA needs to go head-to-head with Russia again?

because you know, there's always an enemy of an enemy, and if you ship some arms to the enemy of state A, that A state may seem fit to ship some other arms (i.e. surplus SAM missiles or surplus RPG launchers or whatever else) to the state B, which is (or could be) enemy of YOUR state.

Do you think it is a really good idea?

 

[Happiness Is A Warm Gun]

The Russia also has a surplus of old, free-fall bombs in 250, 500 and 1000 kg variety; so, shall we in that case operate the NATO way and bomb the offenders back into the stone-age like NATO did with Serbia?

Do you really, REALLY think that USA needs to go head-to-head with Russia again?

because you know, there's always an enemy of an enemy, and if you ship some arms to the enemy of state A, that A state may seem fit to ship some other arms (i.e. surplus SAM missiles or surplus RPG launchers or whatever else) to the state B, which is (or could be) enemy of YOUR state.

Hate to break it to you but the US is already the WORLDS LARGEST ARMS DEALER. We sell more weapons to more countries than anyone else. Not sure if that is something to be proud of but it is the truth.

There is absolutely no international law preventing the Sovereign country of the United States selling weapons to the Sovereign country of Georgia. Neither country is under international sanctions. Neither country is a state sponsor of terrorism. Georgia has no aspirations to invade Russia or any other country.

Also Russia ALREADY is selling weapons to the enemies of US. ATGMs found in Iraq prove that. They were produced AFTER sanctions prevented legal sales to Iraq. Don't worry it wasn't just Russia. Lots of nice French stuff was found that indicated blatantly illegal weapon sales. Nobody is advocating a head to head match between Russia & US. It isn't in the cards.

Do you think it is a really good idea?

Do you think it was a good idea for Russia to invade Georgia? Do you think there will be ramifications for that action. Even ones that hurt Russia in the long run.

Even Poland has now seen the light. After a decade of trying to get a ICBM interceptor base in Poland they finally agreed last week. How many other border countries will seek further support from US & Nato? How many more countries will leave the CIS? How many will drop out of CST?

For years Poland's refusal has been they "didn't want to agitate Russia". Russia actions in Georgia have shown Poland that appeasement is not an option. By 2012 there will be the first battery in Europe capable of shooting down ICBMs. Had Russia not invaded Georgia it is unlikely the missile bases would ever have been built.

Which do you think will annoy Russia more an extension of the Interceptor Bases (pinnacle of US anti ballistic technology) to Europe or sales of couple thousand last gen ATGMs?
Poland agreed to the base because the US will never let it fall. To protect the bases the US will all but guarantee Russia that an invasion of Poland is an attack on the US. To Poland apparently the protection of US intervention is worth a lot more than the goodwill of Russia.

 

[Drgong]

Which do you think will annoy Russia more an extension of the Interceptor Bases (pinnacle of US anti ballistic technology) to Europe or sales of couple thousand last gen ATGMs?
Poland agreed to the base because the US will never let it fall. To protect the bases the US will all but guarantee Russia that an invasion of Poland is an attack on the US. To Poland apparently the protection of US intervention is worth a lot more than the goodwill of Russia

Exactly, but what worries me is what happens if russia invades say, Estonia. NATO member and darn hard to defend if russia wants to go after them.

 

[hksw]

Good eye!! I was looking for some and it looks like you may have found it. It does appear to be a cobra.

The bushmaster and the cobra are two quite different snakes.

 

[bogie]

Max, war sucks.

Regardless.

One can only get so close to the ground.

Personally, I think that the US and Russia (along with Europe) need to really get their heads together, because we've got bigger problems on the horizon. Frankly, militarily, I think Russia screwed the pooch with Georgia... Heck, it'd be like the US invading Puerto Rico...

 

[bogie]

The bushmaster and the cobra are two quite different snakes.

Bushmaster makes AR-15 rifles.

Colt makes Cobras (or at least used to...). Nice pistols.

 

[hankdatank1362]

Isn't a bushmaster a type of snake?


ETA: Oh, and i weep for those rifles.

 

[armoredman]

I also noticed what seemed to be a lot of second line armored unit in the Russian collumns, T64s it seemed, with a lot of reative armor appliques. The T-72 was an export tank, and I don't recall seeing any T-80s in this invasion, but I might have just missed it.

 

[Iggy]

Well you can look at it this way.A least those burned guns won't be given to Al Quaida or someone else to be turned against our guys and gals.

Hell of a way to look at it, but that's the way the world is today.:banghead:

 

[JR47]

The Russians invaded along two fronts. They used just about anything that could move in Russia to do so. The Georgian military is new, and is NOT up to standing off such an attack when they don't have any ongoing support. Modern warfare is manpower intensive, all of those casualties. It also uses up equipment at an awesome rate. Could the Georgians have made a better showing? Probably. Would they have won? Never happen. They WOULD, however, have lost their nation.

The arms in the depots were for a general mobilization. It never got a chance to happen. I would think that the next time, and there WILL be a next time, will be a much more rugged fight.

 

[Z-Michigan]

The arms in the depots were for a general mobilization. It never got a chance to happen. I would think that the next time, and there WILL be a next time, will be a much more rugged fight.

Seems like Georgia, and many others, should be studying Switzerland's approach to defense.

 

[larry starling]

Ash
That doesn't look like a 72 to me, is it a T64?

The Tank in the pictures you posted are T-62's. They mount a 115mm maingun. Pre cursor to the T-64/72 etc....

 

[Cosmoline]

There's also this shot of firing into Grozny. That doesn't look like a 72 to me, is it a T64? This is also a great photo of an SVD in action.

Can you imagine what it would be like to have that tank fire when you're sitting there? Right in the pressure wave.

As far as destruction, it is *just* possible that they did that at our request, made through back channels.

 

[Warren]

Maybe the burned guns belonged to a unit that got immolated.

 

[LJ-MosinFreak-Buck]

Here's a vid from page two of that website. Notice they're using Glocks?

http://u-96.livejournal.com/1468058.html?page=2#comments

 

[Deanimator]

The Russia also has a surplus of old, free-fall bombs in 250, 500 and 1000 kg variety; so, shall we in that case operate the NATO way and bomb the offenders back into the stone-age like NATO did with Serbia?

Oh yeah, I forgot about the Stinger missiles. We need to send them a bunch of those too.

Do you really, REALLY think that USA needs to go head-to-head with Russia again?

No, the Georgians need to shoot them in the back with Armbrusts from every masking terrain feature if they decide to come back.

because you know, there's always an enemy of an enemy, and if you ship some arms to the enemy of state A, that A state may seem fit to ship some other arms (i.e. surplus SAM missiles or surplus RPG launchers or whatever else) to the state B, which is (or could be) enemy of YOUR state.

That ship's already sailed, what with Russia arming the Iranians.

Do you think it is a really good idea?

What's a really good idea is for Georgia to take on a sudden operational resemblence to Finnland and Afghanistan.

 

[Deanimator]

I also noticed what seemed to be a lot of second line armored unit in the Russian collumns, T64s it seemed, with a lot of reative armor appliques. The T-72 was an export tank, and I don't recall seeing any T-80s in this invasion, but I might have just missed it.

The T-72 was not in itself an "export tank". There were export VERSIONS of the T-72 (called "monkey" models by the Soviets) but it was a standard type for the Soviet Army. The T-64 was considered an unsuccessful project. Relatively few were purchased compared to the T-72 and later T-80.

Considering what they were up against, the Russians might as well have used T-34s.

 

[Drgong]

yep, and many of the Iraqi T-72s where Iraqi copies of the T-72, thus the russians got peeved that many nations thought it was top of the line t-72s that where so ineffective.

 

[SSN Vet]

IMHO....the "who was stupid first prize" goes to the U.S. for backing the KLA.

Serbia's claim to Kosovo was rock solid. But they screwed the pooch and in the wake of the Yugoslavia break up, allowed a flood of Albanians to migrate in. Since Prince Lazar lost to the Ottoman turks in 1389, Kosovo has been the rallying cry for Serbian resistance to Muslim oppression. The Orthodox Serbs were reduced to the Vassals of the Muslims and to them, holding Kosovo is to say "never again"

So what does the U.S. do.....bomb the tar out of Serbia and turn the region over to the KLA (the "peacekeeping" mission only succeeded in protecting the KLA from the Serbs, and enabled them to gain strength).

Now, after long declaring that Kosovo was part of Serbia and that it was not our intent to take it away from them, what do we do? Back Kosovo's bid for Independence!

We guaranteed that the Russian leadership would hate us for a very long time when we bombed their Slavic brethren. Russia was to week in the wake of USSR breakup into the CIS to challenge the day. Putin and other nationalist will make sure that that is never the case again.

IMHO, the U.S. had no interest in Kosovo and if our enemies ever did likewise to our allies (bomb T.V. stations and power plants) we would cry foul.

We opened up a can of worms, made enemies where we didn't need to make them and gave the Russians very good reasons to mistrust us.

For what? To expand the influence of Islamic states in Europe!

Way to go Bill Clinton and the Democratic parties foreign policy.