German Sigs vs American Sigs.

[lsudave]

I have an older West German P226 DA/SA, with a very rough finish- pitted and little/no original blue on the slide. I filled off the worst of the pitting, and cold-blued it just because I wanted it dark. I just picked up a newer DAK, I do think it says Germany somewhere. Frame, maybe.

Aside from the trigger, the DAK feels "newer", but still- I can't ask for better results shooting the old one. I gave the DAK to my son for his birthday.

To me, the older one is part of some history, a Cold War relic; while the newer one is just a nice gun.

 

[Rule3]

Beretta 92 made in Italy or made n USA??

 

[WVsig]

You have a romantic view of old factories.

Not at all but I have talked to people who know people who work or have worked at Sig in NH. I know the how they went from a fairly small volume higher end production pistol maker in German into a volume sales model company pumping out tons of avg QCd pistols. Cohen did the exact same thing to Sig that he did at Kimber. I would own an old Clackamas Kimber but you could not give me a later internal extractor or later external extractor Kimber. At one time Kimber was a smaller volume 1911 line and was a game changer for production 1911s. Custom features straight off the line without a visit to a smith. These days they are all fluff and no substance. MIM filled guns selling at high price points.They are pretty but too often they don't last and the Dog don't hunt. Same thing with Sig. It is not romance that makes me see the reality.

 

[Master Blaster]

I can only relate my experience. I bought a German made P220 ST (all stainless model) around 2004, I had trouble with the internal extractor this gun was built with. It would lose tension and fail to extract rounds. I sent it back to SIG and they replaced the extractor, I had gotten one of a bad batch they claimed. A few hundred rounds later the new one lost tension. I re-tensioned it with my 1911 extractor tensioning jig and it was good for about 300 more rounds and the gun became a jamomatic again. I called SIG and sent it in again, after its second trip I fired it only a few times. It sat in my safe and then at a local gunshop on consignment finally after 2 more years of not selling, I took it back and sold it to another local gunshop for $550.

I was glad to get rid of the P220 ST. Now I also own two US made SIGS, a P226 and a P938, The 938 is a regular carry gun, the 226 was a red box reconditioned SIG with the same features as the P226 Navy but without the inscription ( a us Navy contract gun overrun??). Both the American Made P226 and the P938 are accurate and have run flawlessly.

Having shot a few of the older alloy frame folded metal slide west german P220s I can say I like the older German P220s better, they are lighter and balance better. I have never heard of anyone having the problems I had with my P220ST with one of the older P220s

 

[WVsig]

The P220ST was the origins of the P220 extractor issues. It was the first milled stainless steel slide used on the P220. It took a while for Sig to admit the extractor design was not up to the task and had to be redesigned. They went through 2 or 3 mods before going to the external extractor.

 

[9mmepiphany]

I bought a German made P220 ST (all stainless model) around 2004

There were no German made 220ST guns. All the stainless slides were machined domestically

 

[doubleh]

"German products can be strange. I know nothing about Sigs but some of the cars made in Germany are pure crap. Won't do that again! "

My grand daughter owned a BMW and grew to hate that car as did I. She was always calling for help. The thing used oil and coolant and the dealer could never find anything wrong. It came with run flat tires that kept tearing up. She cured the tire problem by taking my advise and putting regular tires on it. So much for German engineering. If someone gave me one of these cars I would immediately trade it off. She finally went to a Nissan and it's been trouble free for two years.

Now back to guns. I own three German made guns and they are great guns but no greater than my USA made guns. None are Sigs so I can't address that part of the question but I wouldn't expect any difference between those despite the country of manufacture.

 

[JR24]

I've owned a number of both W.German and American Sig's and I never noticed a appreciable difference in reliability or shooting.

My old, worn, German 220 would rust if you looked at it funny, which annoyed me. Oh, and my w.German ones never had the SRT, which is manditory for me now once I shot it.

 

[Master Blaster]

There were no German made 220ST guns. All the stainless slides were machined domestically

Half RIght The Frame says Frame Made in Germany so the slides were made Here.. probably assembled here also.

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/858809871#carousel-modal-view-item

 

[9mmepiphany]

.. probably assembled here also.

Yes the frames were manufactured in Germany and shipped over to be mated with milled stainless slides before being assembled. The ejection issues originated with the location of the ejector in the milled slides...none of the folded German slides share the ejection issue

 

[stchman]

Sometime around 1995 BMW and Mercedes made the decision to stop making good cars and start making money.

As far as Sigs go, yup Im a German Sig snob for the same reason I dont want a Mexican made 3 Series......
View attachment 896370

Are you equating Sigs made by American workers to be like cars made in Mexico?

 

[bannockburn]

While I enjoyed the balance and handling of my German made P226, as well as my brother's P228, neither of them had as nice of a trigger (or a more ergonomic grip), as found on my P229.

 

[NIGHTLORD40K]

Are you equating Sigs made by American workers to be like cars made in Mexico?

Only in the sense that products designed and developed by engineers, designers, and companies in one country and assembled in another usually lose something in the cultural translation, even if its only a subjective essence, rather than any objective difference in QC.

Does anybody really want a Ferrari assembled in Poland?

To clarify, I have no issue with the US developed SIGs such as the P238 or P320- those owe nothing to the legacy German designs, so I consider them American pistols .

I will say that I recently left KIA after 10 years with that automaker and the Korean built cars have better quality control, materials, and assembly than the US or Mexican production. Thats not a condemnation of the line workers, but on the US middle management who are used to doing things the GM/Ford way and convinced their Korean bosses that such mediocre quality was what American car buyers were used to and was "good enough" for this market. The '11-14 cars that came out of the West Point Georgia plant were disastrous and continue to plague the company to this day with warranty claims and recalls.

 

[WVsig]

Only in the sense that products designed and developed by companies in one country and assembled in another usually lose something in the translation, even if its only a subjective essence, rather than any objective difference in QC.

BMW has done well in SC. I have been to the plant when I picked up my M550ix. I have also driven at the performance center. Every BMW X vehicle made before 2018 was made in SC.

 

[RikSors]

Here’s an interesting article.

https://www.realgunreviews.com/is-my-made-in-germany-or-west-germany-sig-really-german/

 

[Iggy]

Kinda like pinned and recessed S&Ws or not. I've had both. It's more of a nostalgia thing, but the non pinned ones are gone.

 

[crestoncowboy]

I have sigs from germany, and american ones. And mixed german frames with Exeter slides. Some say sig, some sig sauer, and some sigarms. Some say both. Some have solid breech pins. Some rolled.....It's to the point that i stopped trying to make sense of it actually. The only area I'd give the edge to the folded German models are resale and consistency of their triggers. I havent seen a bad trigger in an old German sig. 80 percent of the american sigs I've used (and that's counting german framed/american slide models) have pretty rough triggers in DA mode compared to the older ones. (and a couple local departments issue 226 or 229 so I've seen quite a few) the last one I got personally was a 229 all Exeter which had an absolutely terrible gritty, trigger that had at least 5 stages of pull weight and multiple obvious walls. Even my wife who could care less about perfect triggers asked why it was so rough. I actually just took it apart and polished it up this week. I also have a german/american 226 to do today that's mediocre for a sig. (Still better trigger than a good German HK...... lol)

I believe the newer slide is a far superior design as far as longevity goes. Some of our local guys have over 50k with only springs and that's 40 and 357 sig. One trainer and former sherriff claims to have 100k through his 357 sig 229 with only springs. I have no reason to doubt it.

From a practical standpoint If I were issued either version I wouldnt feel slighted.

 

[DeepSouth]

I don’t think I’ve ever held a Sig I didn’t like, as far as which is better built I have no idea. I seriously doubt I’ll ever wear one out and all seem to be (in my limited experience) equally reliable.
That said my W. German P220 is easily my favorite but it’s certainly not my favorite because I think it’s “better” than newer ones. Other than being chambered in the best pistol caliber ever , it has many history lessons built in.
E. Germany vs W. Germany..... so many lessons can be gleaned.

 

[Conelrad]

German 220 for 40 years now. Shot lots, never failed, no repairs.

Conelrad

 

[PO2Hammer]

View attachment 896329

Please tell me you didn't paint 'Germany' on the slide.
I thought that was only for HK snobs.

I had an old W.German P226 (folded slide), it did handle like a wand, great gun, but I preferred my US made Navy version with milled slide.

 

[5-SHOTS]

I have a made in Germany P226 AL SO. Finish and accuracy is top notch.
I only have experience with a couple Exeter SP2022. Both DA and SA trigger surprised me, the accuracy not so. Slide finish was very good.

 

[WVsig]

Please tell me you didn't paint 'Germany' on the slide.
I thought that was only for HK snobs.

I had an old W.German P226 (folded slide), it did handle like a wand, great gun, but I preferred my US made Navy version with milled slide.

Since you asked I assume you don't know much about surplus Sigs Imported by PW Arms. It is a secondary import mark put on there by PW Arms....

 

[Mr. Zorg]

My only Sig is a P220 in .38 Super Auto +P, and it was made in Germany, maybe West Germany, I don't remember. It was actually viewed as less desirable due to the European magazine release at the heel of the butt vs the American version with thumb magazine release.

 

[JDR]

I have my P228 and my M11-A1 and I like them both. I have my P6 and my P239 SAS Gen2 and I like those both. I have a P226 in .40 that is my only one in that caliber and it’s my favorite in that caliber. I’m still waiting for my friend back in PA to sell me his West German P226 9mm.

 

[JDGray]

Can someone explain how a slide contains pressure? I thought the chamber of the barrel did that. 40S&W and 9X19 both run about 35,000 PSI, so why did Sig change the slide for the 40 S&W? Did only German made Sigs get the proof marks? A lot of folded slide Sigs say"Made in Germany" but have no proof marks.