Getting back a gun.

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rcmodel said:
...it seems to me you don't have a leg to stand on legally without a written agreement....
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That is a fair statement of the practical reality in this situation. Furthermore, given the value of the gun, I agree that it's probably not worth pursuing.

But let me digress a bit here to outline some law.

An oral contract, with few exceptions, is in fact valid and enforceable. The difficulties with an oral contract are (1) proving that the parties actually intended to enter into a contract; and (2) proving what the terms of that contract are. Sometimes those problems can be overcome and sometimes not.
 
A little backstory on this whole deal.

I've got a friend I went to high school with. We both enlisted after high school, were in basic at the same time, but in different platoons. We didn't get the same assignments or jobs, so we kept in contact via social media. We both also got out after 4 years, I went back home to go to school, he stayed where he was with his new family. He and a friend had this idea they were going to be the next Hicock45, with him doing the audio visual IT stuff behind the scenes, and his buddy being the "personality" on front of the camera doing the shooting and reviews.

Being a start up, they were looking for sponsors and from what I gather, hit up a lot of family and friends for different stuff to review, and it wasn't just guns, but it was all supposed to be shooting related.

I was skeptical, but I went ahead a shipped out a revolver that sat in the back of the safe. I should have just sent it to my friend, in hindsight, instead of his partner.

Long story short, the Youtube channel never took off, my friend had family issues to contend with, and the other guy just sorta vanished. He's not returning phone calls, e-mails, etc.

Could be that something happened to him, but I'm kinda in limbo here, not really knowing what's going on. My gut is telling me he absconded with the gun, and probably whatever the hell else people "donated". Maybe he sold it, pawned it, who knows.

I didn't listen to my gut instinct twice, and it bit me.

I guess people just don't have the integrity they used to.
 
JustSomeGuy123 said:
Would an e-mail count as a written statement, or would it need to be signed?
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Things like emails, other correspondence, notes, etc., can all be used as evidence to help establish that the parties entered into a contract and what the parties intended the terms to be. The problem is that having a lawyer handle things will be just too much money for a $400.00 gun.

If I were handling this for you, I'd spend some time talking with you for background, look at any correspondence and/or notes, do a bit of research, and write a demand letter. That would all involve, say, three to five hours work -- for a bill of around $900.00 to $1500.00. Filing suit would run up the cost considerably.
 
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Like an ISP trace? I don't have the capability for that; it would need to be law enforcement or someone investigating a case, right?
 
If you have email evidence and can get your friend to appear as a witness, I'd pursue the issue in small claims court.

No attorney needed, usually small filing fees, and they often perform service of the suit themselves. The amount you're looking to recover, and possibly travel expenses and court fees, would generally fall into small claims jurisdiction.

A strictly legal proceeding with no threats or other shady practices involved. It would bother me for this guy to get away with it.
 
Shaq said:
Didn't pay for it; didn't return it = stolen. Especially with "Not responding to contact."
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How are people not getting this. He essentially gifted the man the gun. Whether money was exchanged or not has nothing to do in this case. It was a LEGAL transfer through the ATFE. If you have emails explaining what the terms were, please move forward with action seeing as those would be binding terms. If you don't have concrete evidence, any ambulance chaser can easily call up the ATFE and record the call saying it was a legal transfer per whatever code of whatever section. End of the day, this guy got shafted and hopefully it works out in his favor. If you go to court, you'll sleep easy knowing 98% of the people on this thread have your back and will be hoping for the safe return of your gun.
 
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trentcwwilson said:
How are people not getting this. He essentially gifted the man the gun. Whether money was exchanged or not has nothing to do in this case. It was a LEGAL transfer through the ATFE. If you have emails explaining what the terms were, please move forward with action seeing as those would be binding terms. If you don't have concrete evidence, any ambulance chaser can easily call up the ATFE and record the call saying it was a legal transfer per whatever code of whatever section. End of the day, this guy got shafted and hopefully it works out in his favor. If you go to court, you'll sleep easy knowing 98% of the people on this thread have your back and will be hoping for the safe return of your gun.
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Bingo.

Remember, people...this went through an FFL with a 4473.
 
Didn't pay for it; didn't return it = stolen. Especially with "Not responding to contact."
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This is stupid. It's not a stolen gun -- he sent it to the guy voluntarily. It is an entirely civil matter. The answer is you sue him in small claims court for the value of the gun.

The difficulty you're going to have is that you have no proof it was a loan. He'll claim it was a gift and you have no proof otherwise, unless you saved emails or texts from him acknowledging the loan.

Seriously, doesn't anyone watch People's Court anymore?
 
Blackbeard said:
This is stupid. It's not a stolen gun -- he sent it to the guy voluntarily. It is an entirely civil matter. The answer is you sue him in small claims court for the value of the gun.

The difficulty you're going to have is that you have no proof it was a loan. He'll claim it was a gift and you have no proof otherwise, unless you saved emails or texts from him acknowledging the loan.

Seriously, doesn't anyone watch People's Court anymore?
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They were running reruns today. Good episodes too.
 
Shaq said:
trentcwwilson said:
May want to reread the posts. It was a legal transfer. By law, the man the loaned the gun to is now the lawful owner.
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Didn't pay for it; didn't return it = stolen. Especially with "Not responding to contact."
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trentcwwilson said:
Shaq said:
Didn't pay for it; didn't return it = stolen. Especially with "Not responding to contact."
Click to expand...
How are people not getting this. He essentially gifted the man the gun. Whether money was exchanged or not has nothing to do in this case. It was a LEGAL transfer through the ATFE.
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Neither of you are particularly familiar with the intricacies of the law. It's more complicated than you make out.

I. Is this theft?

Theft, in general, is:
A criminal act in which property belonging to another is taken without that person's consent.

The term theft is sometimes used synonymously with Larceny. Theft, however, is actually a broader term, encompassing many forms of deceitful taking of property, including swindling, Embezzlement, and False Pretenses. Some states categorize all these offenses under a single statutory crime of theft.
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But here the OP gave possession of the gun to the subject willingly, so the OP consented to the subject taking the gun.

It could still be theft if the subject did not intend at the time to return or pay for the gun, as the OP says he promised to do. So to convict the subject of the crime of theft it would be necessary to prove that he made intentionally lied to the OP in order to induce the OP to part with the gun. That is theft by false pretenses.

We don't know whether or not there is sufficient evidence to support a criminal prosecution. The practical reality is that unless there is substantial, clear, and readily available evidence, the DA is unlikely to prosecute over the alleged theft of a $400.00 item.

II. Is the fact that the gun was transferred by an FFL material?

The short answer is "no."

If there is evidence to support a charge of theft by false pretenses, the crime was committed whether or not the transfer of the gun was done according to the formalities required by federal law.

If there is evidence to support a claim by the OP that the subject agreed to pay for or return the gun, the subject has breached the contract he entered into with the OP. He may therefore still be held civilly liable notwithstanding the transfer of the gun according to the formalities required by federal law.

The real problems here are: (1) whether there is sufficient evidence show the criminal intent necessary to support a prosecution for theft by false pretenses; (2) whether there is sufficient evidence to find that the OP and subject entered into a contract which the subject breached; and (3) the fact that the property involved isn't worth enough to warrant too much effort and expense pursuing those remedies.
 
Contrary to what some folks seem to believe, BATFE is not a consumer protection agency, nor are the police. ATF doesn't care about your predicament unless you or the recipient violated the law, and that appears not be the case. Neither do the police unless you report the gun as stolen, and that also appears not be the case. The legal aspects of the shipment are not really relevant, nor is the fact that it is a gun - you gave someone a piece of your property on the understanding that he would return it. He seems to see it otherwise. It is no different from a neighbor borrowing your lawnmower and refusing to return it. Your recourse is to civil law but you might end up paying out more than the gun is worth with no assurance that you would win or, if you did, that you would get back the gun or court costs.

Jim
 
Back around 1997 or thereabouts I "contracted" with a person I met while riding a ferry boat to perform some finish work for me on some furniture I'd made. We met up shortly after wherein I handed over the furniture, along with a deposit to cover materials, with the expectation of having the finish work done in a month or so. To cut a long story short, after the second request for more money I figured I'd been had, hook line and sinker. The person disappeared from radar.

So, I took a long shot and called Seattle Police where I was referred to a fraud detective. He listened to what I had to say then, upon learning the name of the alleged perpetrator, became keenly interested and said he would be happy to investigate the matter. I later learned my case had been handed over to the DA for prosecution; this was not the perp's first rodeo.

As hard as this is to believe, I got a call from the perp's attorney a few weeks later pleading with me to accept my furniture, all the paid money and a letter of apology if I would agree to let this one go. I accepted. Everything was returned in good condition, including the money.

BTW, this started life at $400, albeit in 1997 dollars, so you never know.
 
Justsomeguy. Sometimes it only costs you $400 or so to get someone out of your life. If you see him, I would ask him about the pistol, but I bet he avoids you like the plague. And do you really want him in your life? One reason I never loan a firearm.
 
Your mistake to do it to begin with.

It is not a stolen gun. It was legally transferred by a FFL. You could be charged with filing a false poli e report if you claim its stolen. A small claims lawsuit would be a "he said, he said" situation and he would stI'll have the gun.

Scratch it up as a loss.
 
I'm still a little confused by all the legal stuff. It doesn't seem to be a clear cut criminal case, but still could be.
It could be civil, either way, with or without a criminal conviction.

I hate being had, but this looks like an investment of time and money with no guarantee on a return of either my time, money or the gun.

I wish I could say it was worth pursuing, but I just don't know.
 
I...t doesn't seem to be a clear cut criminal case, but still could be.
It could be civil, either way, with or without a criminal conviction....
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No, it's not clear cut at all -- neither as a criminal matter nor as a civil matter.

For one thing, a proper assessment of the case requires a detail examination and evaluation of all possible evidence. We don't have all the evidence.
 
I hate to bring this up, but are you sure something didn't happen to the guy? Like is he still with us? I would try to go by his last known address or maybe try and contact a family member if possible. There are all kinds of reasons why this may be going on. Give him the benefit of the doubt. If you didn't trust him or had any doubts about this then I would not have sent it. I can't tell you I have only loaned my stuff out once and that was really hard for me to do. I don't even like sending my stuff to a smith!
 
If the friend that was the middleman knows of transaction details, you can call him as a witness. Take the guy that stiffed you to small claims court.
 
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