Getting Rid of AK variants from personal collection

[MagnumDweeb]

Okay, so I have amassed a large collection since before the primaries till now. And now I'm having trouble finding where to store most of it.

Just the rifles: I've got 3 FALs and 3 CETMEs, a Saiga 16" .223, Winchester 94AE .30-30, 2 Yugo Mausers, 3 Mosin Nagants, an AR with 16"(M4 model), an AR in 5.45x39 and a few AK homebrews being Yugo M70AB2(Yugo 70 underfolder), AMD 65, and Romy G. and a disassembled SKS. I do want a .22lr rifle.

Don't get me wrong I like the AK platform but a friend of my cousins is this little overly-wealthy trust-fund child from Miami who wants "Real AKs" and my cousin showed him pictures of us with the homebrews. And anyone who has seen my cell phone pics can tell you they are horrible pictures so it's safe to say my cousin used his overpriced digital camera.

The friend and I have been in contact and he understands he has to order the respective receivers from NoDak because i'm not selling any homebrew receivers as that would be a big no no and I don't want the ATF knocking on my door. I've got the AK variants on screw kits (strength 8 screws), with TAPCO semi-auto only FCGs, and the AMD-65 has a Romanian Barrel in 7.62x39, I destroyed the FA FCGs(didn't want them being around and causing trouble one day in the future) with a nice sledge hammer.

So here's the sweetner, I bought each parts kit in either two(s) or threes, the AMD 65 I bought only two of because I didn't know if the Romanian barrel would work and i've got two Yugo M64 kits sitting untouched because I found out they are essentially the same as the Yugo M70. The deal would go where the guy gets his hands on the receivers(says he already has an Economy Nodak for the Romy G and can get the others) and I just transfer the parts over easily enough. The guy would be getting the screw kits(I still have two somewhere in the back of one of the safes) and parts, not the homebrew receivers so I'd be keeping them and probably destroying them and keeping the destroyed remains just to cover my backside, and I'd be getting $600 per parts transfer, he's not even asking for proof-testing on the gun, says he has a gunsmith who will do that(yeah I don't believe it either and I'm going to write up a long release waiver and plenty of caveat emptor clauses and acceptance of risk clauses).

So yeah it's a sweet deal but the Ju-ju(karma) is bothering me, yeah the guy is an obnoxious arrogant know-nothing but doesn't there come a point where you can't take advantage of every sucker. And then I'm worried if he goes and sells the guns to folks who shouldn't have them. If I go through with the sale I'll make more than double what I put into each gun, then maybe go ahead and get some Nodak receivers to make some FFL transferable firearms. Or just leave the remaining parts kits untouched. I've got 2k of wolf 7.62x39, but I don't do a lot of rifle shooting with anything other than the bolt actions and .30-30(I reload the .30-30) and I've got an SKS sitting dissassembled and plenty of stipper clips for it.

I wouldn't miss them, I think I would enjoy the SKS more greatly as a shooter, and I don't necessarily have to destroy the homebrew receivers because I'm keeping them(the buyer is getting his own FFL receivers, so I'm not technically selling guns, just replacement parts), and even if I destroyed them I still have plenty of flat 80% receivers and a bending jig and the MAP gas torches are easy enough to come by.

I've sold four guns over only nearly four years of ownership (only 24 turning 25 in sept.) an SKS to a friend(one of the two I got as collateral for a $150 loan), an Ruger Security Six 4"(still kick myself hard for that one), an Arcus 94C (BHP clone 9mm), and a Rossi 2" .357 (Interarms make not Brazztech), and while I made a profit on each, I still hate the absence of them, especially the Ruger. The guns are not especially remarkable, and it would nice to focus in fewer caiblers. I have come to love the 5.45x39 and would probably use a chunk of the net to pick up three or four more cases.

Plus there is the whole AR debate too, I've been thinking an AR platform that can reliably handle 7.62x39(I know there are a couple manufcaturers like Olympic) would be a better route to go and I could always sit on the parts kits (only the AMD 65 doesn't have a barrel technically, the spare Romanian should work for it). I've fallen for the AR platform over the AK platorm, and with the 'panic' subsiding I could get an WASR for unde $500 in a year or so most likely.

Oh for those wanting to do homebrews: good places to start are nodakspud.com and prexis.com, also check out https://www.apexgunparts.com/ for parts kits, you'll have to hunt for the screw kits off of gunbroker. Stop by your local pawnshop for a drill press (got a Ryobi for $65 OTD), but I did take on the challenge with a dremel for the AMD 65. And make plenty of room in your freezer(got to forum off prexis, you'll see).

 

[peyton]

Sell to people you know, not a friend of a friend, to much to worry about. Secondly, buy a bigger safe and keep them!!

 

[bobotech]

Huh what? Why the hell would you want to disassemble the guns even though they were folded flats?

There is NOTHING illegal about selling guns built on flats. You do have to mark them with a serial of your choosing though and you might need to put a name on there but as far as anything illegal going on, nope, no sirree.

You seem to be making a mountain out of a molehill. First of all, if you demil the receivers from the kits, all the kits are are just a bunch of random parts. There is nothing about parts kits that makes them a controlled item.

You mention something about "parts tranfser", what does that mean? He is going to pay you 600 dollars per parts kit? You are getting a hellava great profit. Romy kits are worth about 350, AMD 65s about 375, and so on (with barrels, barreless kits are worth a lot less). So what does this parts transfer mean and why are you worrying about some long waiver and why don't you just give him the parts if he gives you the cash. Him having receivers or not has no bearing in the deal.

It doesn't matter if he builds the kits on Nodak Spud receivers or balsa wood, or he decides to make folk art out of the kits, its irrelevant to your sale.

If you were to sell the parts kits, its no different than selling a wooden chair to him. Even possessing the FA FCG isn't illegal except in some states (like WA).

Lemme get this straight, you are selling this guy basic AK kits for 600 dollars a peice and they aren't anything fancy like Polish underfolders, or AK74s with plum furniture or anything fancy like that?

 

[bobotech]

Also you mention buying an WASR for under 500 within a year, you do realize that WASRs are selling for about 450 now don't you? www.classicarms.us for an example.

 

[kanook]

There is NOTHING illegal about selling guns built on flats. You do have to mark them with a serial of your choosing though and you might need to put a name on there but as far as anything illegal going on, nope, no sirree

don't forget the manfacture license, tax id #, business license, resale license, storefront and so on. :banghead:

 

[Ian]

You can sell a homebuilt gun, you just can't build one for the purpose of resale.

 

[bobotech]

don't forget the manfacture license, tax id #, business license, resale license, storefront and so on.

That is not needed for HOME building, only for professionals who build for resale.

How many guns have you built from scratch? Scratch in a sense means you machined or formed the receiver and didn't just assemble a gun on an existing receiver?

So license, id, business license, resale, storefront only are needed for FFLs whose intent is to resale the built guns.

But if you build your own receivers and decide to sell one or two every so often, you are in the clear.

However if you start reselling a large amount of your homebrew rifles, then that could raise the ire of the ATF. They don't look kindly on home builders who build rifles with the intent of selling them for resale profit.

Please look up the legalities of home brewing before you jump to conclusions. There are quite a few home building AK forums that have hashed these issues out and have found the various ATF regs and rules about these issues.

Here is a link that you might find informative:
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/building_a_firearm.pdf
Look at the last line, specifically mentions selling a home built gun and what you need to do (mark it with a serial).

 

[W.E.G.]

Sell them for top dollar in winter of 2010.

 

[Sam1911]

I can see wanting to be safe and not selling a large number of (truly) home-made receiverd guns. I can see getting a creepy feeling about some dude who isn't really someone you feel comfortable selling to.

But otherwise, I think you're being kind of super paranoid. Follow the law and you're ok. Make up bills of sale if you want and make him sign them. Again... FOLLOW the STATE AND FEDERAL laws and you've got no problem.

If you do decide to disassemble and cut up your homebuilt receivers, make sure that you find someone you TRUST -- a real friend and mentor -- and have them kick you in the a$$ repeatedly for doing something so wasteful and silly.



-Sam

 

[kanook]

Building a Firearm
Question: Is it legal to assemble a firearm from commercially available parts kits that can be
purchased via internet or shotgun news?
Answer: For your information, per provisions of the Gun Control Act (GCA) of 1968, 18
U.S.C. Chapter 44, an unlicensed individual may make a “firearm” as defined in the GCA for his
own personal use, but not for sale or distribution.

wow i guess I was wrong. maybe i misunderstood the "own personal use, but not for sale or distribution" part. to me it looks pretty clear that you can build all you want without any worries and sell all those you built and not commit any crime. :banghead: I mean after all the law says "no" but some guy on the internet that even posted a link to the atf website says it's fine.

 

[Ian]

The "personal use but not for sale" clause applies to the intent of the builder, just like homebrewing alcohol. I could sell a buddy a case of my homemade beer that I happen to have lying around, as long as I wasn't making it for that purpose.

Somewhere around here I have a copies of a couple ATF letters on the subject of selling homebuilds. Not sure where they are at the moment, but you can find them on the net if you look. Or, of course, you could simply ask your local ATF office, and not rely on the intarwebz at all...

 

[bobotech]

wow i guess I was wrong. maybe i misunderstood the "own personal use, but not for sale or distribution" part. to me it looks pretty clear that you can build all you want without any worries and sell all those you built and not commit any crime. I mean after all the law says "no" but some guy on the internet that even posted a link to the atf website says it's fine.

Like the above poster posted, its all about intent. Of course a home brew builder can't build for mass resale but to sell one of your builds once in a while is fine.

Read the last line of the letter. It mentions what to do in case you want to legally transfer the weapon:

Also,
the firearm should be identified as required in 27 CFR 478.92 if it is sold or otherwise lawfully
transferred in the future

Its just like a C&R license (do you know what one of those is?). You are not supposed to use a C&R for reselling rifles as a business, its for personal use. But the ATF understands that people want to sell their firearms once in a while so they say its okay to sell your C&R rifles every so often. Same with the home brew rifles. Its all about intent.

In a nutshell, its perfectly legal to mark and identify your home brew receiver and resell it if you have to down the road. Just don't do it regularly and you will be fine.

Check out some of the kit building boards for more info. This has been hashed out over and over with the same result, you stamp your receiver from a flat and you can sell it if you have to.

 

[MagnumDweeb]

I got too worried about it and decided to just not go through with it. The guy originally said $600, "for all my expertise" and what. Then he asked about how the gun could become a FA and that settled it and I told him I got a better deal in cash for just the parts themselves, he told me he hadn't got the Nodak receivers yet so I figure he isn't out anything. He also started talking about lowering the price down to $500. And other idiotic things and I decided to just leave them be. I wanted to take on a DP28 project and the net revenue from the sales of the kits would have paid for two parts kits(always get a spare) and a 210 volt arc welder(my uncles wife don't like me using his shop space).

I just got excited at the prospect of taking on new projects. I'm only funding my 'projects' from my earinings as an NRA isntructor(about net $900 a month) and just keeping my day trading earnings in the bank.

I was going to transfer the parts from my homebrew receivers to the guys FFL okay receivers originally. That way i wouldn't be selling a gun but just parts. The parts would be checked out, fitted, and checked for headspace. And thus a fully working rifle as an endpeace.

I think I'll stop by Walmart and see if they have any 7.62x39 for 40 cents or less a round and pickup sixty rounds to reaffirm my love for the guns.

 

[bobotech]

I was going to transfer the parts from my homebrew receivers to the guys FFL okay receivers originally. That way i wouldn't be selling a gun but just parts. The parts would be checked out, fitted, and checked for headspace. And thus a fully working rifle as an endpeace.

I'm not sure if I'm reading this incorrectly or not, but are you saying you were going to transfer your parts via FFL to his FFL dealer? Or you were just going to take your remaining parts and give to the buyer? When I hear the word 'transfer' in the gun world, it implies to me a legal FFL to FFL transfer. You never need a FFL involved if you are selling nothing more than a pile of parts with no receiver.

As far as the headspace is concerned, if you had the headspace checked out once before with your built kits, then it will never change no matter how many times you move the same bolt-bolt carrier-trunnion to a different receiver.

Headspace on an AK is dependent almost entirely on the bolt and the bolts relationship with the trunnion so it doesn't matter if it is even in a receiver. The bolt carrier really should not even affect headspace but as a rule, most check headspace with and without the bolt carrier in place just to make sure.

In the end, if you demilled your home brew receivers, you would not be responsible for his gun built on his receiver. One thing about home building is that you are not supposed to build a gun for someone else. That other person has to build it. So if he built a totally unsafe gun, you would not be responsible. If your intent was to build a gun for someone else, even just one, you would need to be an FFL manufacturer.

I just don't want newbies in the future coming across this thread and freaking out about building an AK of their own and thinking that they have to jump though all sorts of hoops when they really don't.

 

[krs]

This thread makes me wonder how the "imported parts" prohibition fits with the OP's intentions?

There's a bit in the ATF FAQ's that reads:

"With certain exceptions a firearm may be made by a non-licensee provided it is not for sale and the maker is not prohibited from possessing firearms. However, a person is prohibited from assembling a non-sporting semi-automatic rifle or non-sporting shotgun from imported parts.

[18 U.S.C. 922(o) and (r), 26 U.S.C. 5822, 27 CFR 478.39, 479.62 and 479.105]

 

[MagnumDweeb]

It all got too complicated and worrisome so I just didn't go through with it. Didn't want the stress from it all.

And lots of folks homebrew and I'm sure ATF watches www.prexis.com to watch people. And AKs still come in under 'sporting' use. That was the one of the biggest issues for the longest time. Certain firearms like the .380 caliber Glock can't be imported because it's not considered sporting.

The barrel ban is the biggest thing nowadays with the kits. And it's become state dependent with whether or not you can homebrew.

People homebrew 1919s, .50 BMGs, MG34s, M60s

 

[bobotech]

This thread makes me wonder how the "imported parts" prohibition fits with the OP's intentions?

There's a bit in the ATF FAQ's that reads:

"With certain exceptions a firearm may be made by a non-licensee provided it is not for sale and the maker is not prohibited from possessing firearms. However, a person is prohibited from assembling a non-sporting semi-automatic rifle or non-sporting shotgun from imported parts.

[18 U.S.C. 922(o) and (r), 26 U.S.C. 5822, 27 CFR 478.39, 479.62 and 479.105]

If you read up further on the imported portions, the section 922r refers to that a gun cannot consist of more than 10 imported parts. That is why you see so many american companies building easy to replace parts for guns built on these parts kits. Guns like the AK use about 15-17 parts as per the ATF. If you put in some American made parts such as the trigger group (3 parts), muzzle brake (1), pistol grip (1), and gas piston (1), you can meet or exceed the required parts count and keep it at 10 or under imported parts.