Glock 22 vs. Bersa Thunder 40...Help me close the "sale" to my beginner friend....

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Oh...so a CZ75, where he has to decock by pulling the trigger while manually lowering the hammer? :scrutiny:

GREAT choice for a new guy! :rolleyes:

Or the baked-potato chubby grip of a SIG?

The antiquated DA/SA design is not something to saddle a new guy with figuring out and learning/remembering to use correctly at any rate.

Just get out of his way and let him make a decision. You're doing more harm than good at this point.
 
Was he hoping to prove that grandma's cooking would hurt a firearm? That's the stupidest test I've heard of.

Roasted a pistol......
I never disputed their reliability...after all this is pretty much the major Glock selling point...however these extreme unrelistic tests does not diqualify other quality firearms from been considered extremely reliable under all expected realistic conditions....

Desert conditions get past 120 degrees easily (in fact near the Red Sea it's 149 degrees.) In fact car temps in the summer can get real high. Thus high temperature test.

The military sometimes work in very hot or very cold or wet or grimy or humid or dry or sandy or salty (corrosive) or any number of combinations.

Thus testing to see what works in all of them and what does not.

Glock is just one of the few that works very well in virtually all adverse conditions.

And that is a big selling point in any defensive pistol.

One does not have to worry about conditions they may 'realistically' encounter. The Glock will take them all.

If one forgets to clean their Glock after a shooting session or bad weather, no biggie. If the Glock runs dry (lubricant that is) no biggie.

Militaries and police of the world buy Glocks for more than just cost reasons.

Deaf
 
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Desert conditions get past 120 degrees easily (in fact near the Red Sea it's 149 degrees.) In fact car temps in the summer can get real high. Thus high temperature test.

The military sometimes work in very hot or very cold or wet or grimy or humid or dry or sandy or salty (corrosive) or any number of combinations.

Thus testing to see what works in all of them and what does not.

Glock is just one of the few that works very well in virtually all adverse conditions.

And that is a big selling point in any defensive pistol.

One does not have to worry about conditions they may 'realistically' encounter. The Glock will take them all.

If one forgets to clean their Glock after a shooting session or bad weather, no biggie. If the Glock runs dry (lubricant that is) no biggie.

Militaries and police of the world buy Glocks for more than just cost reasons.

Deaf

I remember many handgun passed incredible tough torture test....in the 80's the M9 was famous for acing extremely tough sessions...if I remember correctly the Glock 17 lost out on that competition to be the standard sidearm of the US military.....

Glocks are not the first handguns to be able to master such demanding conditions.
 
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The antiquated DA/SA design is not something to saddle a new guy with figuring out and learning/remembering to use correctly at any rate.

Just get out of his way and let him make a decision. You're doing more harm than good at this point.

Antiquated?? On what planet do you live?? Please enlighten me since when striker fired semiautos have been around compared to SA/DA design...I'm curious....Do I really have to spell it for you why a DA/SA action is superior for a newbie to handle with one round in the pipe??

One word...trigger control, handling during stressful situations...

Not too mention holster choice flexibility.

What, exactly, makes a DA/SA better for a new shooter?

A very good case can be made to the contrary.

Read above...
 
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Antiquated, as in, surpassed in optimal utility by other designs.

Yes, yes, of course that long DA pull is so very much safer. :rolleyes: At least that's what folks kept saying 30 years ago. Back when the Weaver stance ruled the world and plastic pistols were newfangled novelties. Since then we've evolved a bit. Yes, I do believe the DA/SA system is a dinosaur that is fading from the scene. (Too slowly, IMHO, but only due to nostalgia and inertia.)

(This is a big part of what keeps Sig and H&K where they are as fading memories of their once prominent places in cutting-edge firearms development. Of course SIG at least managed to try and get with the times...by building a copy of a 102 year old design!!! Whoops, maybe they'll get it next time.)

But seriously, your credibility here is in question when you suggest that a newbie should try out a CZ75, which would require him to drop the hammer with his left hand to make is "safer."

And "holster choice flexibility?" I can't even picture what you might mean by that. If you can't find a holster for a Glock or M&P or xD or whatever other gun you might want, you sure aren't looking very hard.
 
LOL! When Bersa build a gun FOR CONCEALED CARRY, well look what they came up with: http://www.bersa.com/bersa-firearms/BPCC.html

BP-CC-9-mat-L-fram.jpg


This model are highlighted by the following features:

High Impact Polymer Frame
Picatinny rail, polygonal rifling & loaded chamber indicator
Ambidextrous magazine release
Striker fired
Micro-polished bore with sharp, deep rifling
3-dot sight system
Integral Locking System
Automatic firing pin safety
Lifetime service contract

Guess Bersa's one up on SIG, at least!
 
I'm curious....Do I really have to spell for you why a DA/SA action is superior for a newbie to handle with one round in the pipe??

One word...trigger control, handling during stressful situations...

Um, why couldn't that apply to a Glock/XD/M&P?

I've worked with trained cops that forgot to decock their Sig, so it's a valid concern, despite your flippant dismissal of it.

I know a Grandmaster that specializes in the CZ platform who has had more than one AD as he lowered the hammer on a live round.

If cops and GM's have issues, so then, I submit, might your gun-newbie friend

Not too mention holster choice flexibility...

I can't wait to read more about this....especially when you champion an obscure pistol...

.
 
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And "holster choice flexibility?" I can't even picture what you might mean by that.


I mean avoiding getting a glock leg with the wrong/worn holster...that is exactly what I mean...google it up....;)

Yes, I do believe the DA/SA system is a dinosaur that is fading from the scene.

Your opinion non substantiated by any fact.....I do not see SIG, Beretta, CZ and others backing away from the DA/SA action for their more expensive product line any time soon...some of them just added few less expensive polymer framed striker fired

LOL! When Bersa build a gun FOR CONCEALED CARRY, well look what they came up with: http://www.bersa.com/bersa-firearms/BPCC.html

Yes..that is the new budget service caliber Bersa offering to run in the tupperware striker fired market.....significantly less expensive then their just as small, Thunder Ultra Compact, this guy here

url


...so and your point is???

Striker fired plastic pistols have their place in the marketplace, usually companies that also produce traditional DA/SA design offer them as budget simpler handgun models....they are simple, accurate and reliable but they are not the best thing since sliced bread as it seems you think they are.....

I can't wait to read more about this....especially when you champion an obscure pistol...

hmm...tell me what "obscure" pistol you are referring to...
 
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You carry one int he pipe without safety engaged....
Wait...so you don't think it's safe for him to carry a striker-fired non-pre-cocked Glock, but you'd tell him to carry a fully cocked CZ75 without the safety on? :eek:

Do you know how a CZ75 works?


And "holster choice flexibility?" I can't even picture what you might mean by that.

I mean avoiding getting a glock leg with the wrong/worn holster...that is exactly what I mean...google it up....
"Glock leg" is a silly term for a mistake that doesn't have anything to do with one specific holster or type of holster. In fact, I still don't know what you're talking about, or even insinuating. You don't shoot yourself in the leg (with any gun) because you picked the wrong holster.

Yes, I do believe the DA/SA system is a dinosaur that is fading from the scene.
Your opinion non substantiated by any fact.....I do not see SIG, Beretta, CZ and others backing away from the DA/SA action for their more expensive product line any time soon...
That doesn't mean it isn't a dinosaur.

And you don't see that? Oh realllllly? Meet Beretta's newest offering: The Nano: http://www.berettausa.com/nano/

Meet CZ's CZ-110: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CZ_110

SIG is a hide-bound group who lives entirely on past reputation at this point. (Of course, IMHO.)

Substantive change comes slowly in the conservative firearms world. The fact that striker-fired guns have gained such a huge portion of the market, in the face of the old school stalwarts, shows which way the tide has turned.

Yes..that is the new budget service caliber Bersa offering to run in the tupperware striker fired market.....significantly less expensive then their just as small, Thunder Ultra Compact, this guy here
...so and your point is???
That it really doesn't matter what BRAND you choose to love or hate. Others, even your favorite pistol company, see that your old school views don't circumscribe best practices and design. You need to get off your pall's back and let him make his best decision without laying your negative preconceptions on him.

Striker fired plastic pistols have their place in the marketplace, usually companies that also produce traditional DA/SA design offer them as budget simpler handgun models....
"Usually?" Oh, is that so? So "usually" ... but not Glock, S&W, or Springfield who sell the most. Or Ruger who just discontinued their P-series? So basically, that whole statement is incorrect.

(And S&W's value line is...ANOTHER STRIKER GUN!)

they are simple, accurate and reliable but they are not the best thing since sliced bread as it seems you think they are.....
They are proving themselves to be the "bestest for the mostest." Hitting the sweet spot between safety, accuracy, shootability, reliability, value, etc. That's really how the shooting world changes, you know, when people try things in massive numbers, spread over the whole country, shooting in many different styles and venues, and very large percentages of them find that they succeed more easily and faster with a gun like "x" than with another gun like "y." Glock didn't take over the handgun world with slick police marketing. S&W didn't steal a huge chunk out of Glock's market share by underselling them and good advertising. These things work VERY well for MANY people. BETTER than previous designs. When folks realize that they can do competition, daily carry, LEO duties, etc., etc., BETTER with the plastic fantastic than their old steel DA-first-shot boat anchor ...

And you ragging on and deriding your "friend" because he wants to try one for himself and see if it will work best for him too -- just because you like old style metal guns with hammers -- isn't being a HELP to him.

Which is what I said before.
 
I can't wait to read more about this....especially when you champion an obscure pistol...
hmm...tell me what "obscure" pistol you are referring to...
He's suggesting merely that it will be harder to find a variety of holsters that fit any of the Bersas than it will be to pick from the thousands of holsters made for Glocks.
 
1. What is wrong with utilizing condition 1 on a CZ75?

2. There are decocker CZs you know.

3. With a FPB model CZ as long as the trigger has reset it won't go bang if the hammer slips. In fact it will rest itself at half cock. Which is a better spot for carry anyways. It's where a decocker model sets the hammer.
 
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1. The OP was extolling the virtues of DA/SA, for the safety factor of that DA first pull. I have no problem with SA guns, C&L, myself.

2. Oh sure. But not a CZ75.

3. Yeah... if the guy does it right. Getting a newbie to do that proper technique might not be simpler and easier -- and more conducive to his safety and success -- than letting him choose a striker-fired gun if he really wants to.
 
1. Fair enough. Could buy a Tanfoglio design and engage the safety on DA. Can't get safer.

2. Correct no 75BD in .40S&W. Although there is the SP01 Tactical available in .40S&W. Hurray for a nice beaver tail and a rail.

3. Buy the SP01 Tactical and no worries.

Well the guy is going to shoot one right?
Never met a person who didn't like the feel of one in the hand out how they shoot. Prices are getting higher though.

Let's add #4
Could go slightly smaller and get a P06.
Or get a poly P07 or P09.
Baby Eagles are great too. The Semi Compact ones are a great size with full size grip and 4" barrel.
 
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Sam 1911's point about the CZ and clone guns (not the decocker models), if you are using them DA/SA, you have to manually lower the hammer to get them to DA. Most would feel that is not a good choice for somebody new to guns. They'd be much better off with a single action, DA/SA with decocker, or a striker fired gun.

For the OP, finding a holster for a Glock 22 is one of the easiest things to find, while you're going to need to do some searching to find a holster for a Bersa, and when you do find them, you will be very limited in your choices. In addition, you can find G22 mags practically everywhere. Bersa mags, not so much.

I'm not a Glock fan. I've never owned one, and it's possible I never will. Heck, I don't even own any polymer guns and never have. This seems like a no brainer question, have your friend, at least if he is your friend, get the Glock.
 
We're pretty far afield from the original question which was answered pretty well in the first few posts (if the potential buyer likes and shoots the Bersa best, get it. If he likes and shoots the Glock best, get that instead.) BUT...
As far as DA/SA being antiquated and striker fired pistols being the way to the future, striker fired pistols pre-date DA/SA (1906 Japanese Nambu vs. 1930's German P-38). I'm not an expert on this but I thought the P-38 introduced the world to DA/SA.

Also remember that a lot of old guys on this board remember narrow ties, then wide ties, then narrow ties again. For the ladies, hemlines go up, hemlines go down, then go back up again. DA/SA was the new thing, now striker fired pistols are in fashion. May we all live long enough to see which way the fashion winds blow again.

This is no knock on striker fired pistols, they can work well but they don't represent a one way ticket to small arms perfection. There are other paths to Nirvana as well.

My $0.02.

Dan
 
That supposes, of course, that the design of mechanical devices is subject entirely to the whims of fashion and does not actually progress toward perfection. (Not the Glock advertising slogan, but rather the unattainable but approachable goal of all refinement.)

That's not something I agree with.

As we study ergonomics, kinesiology, the refinement of shooting training and technique, and even psychology, I believe that we trend toward a smaller and smaller set of deviations clustered around a "bestest for the mostest" theoretical perfect design.

So, no, I really don't think we're going to wander randomly around the spectrum of service handguns and one decade find that DA/SAs are at the top of the heap again, and then three decades further on the best shooters are favoring revolvers, and then next century it's back to SA autos. I don't believe that any more than I believe we'll be riding steam locomotives again soon, or we'll drift back toward rotary-dial telephones and those "penny farthing" bicycles with the one huge wheel up front.
 
Wait...so you don't think it's safe for him to carry a striker-fired non-pre-cocked Glock, but you'd tell him to carry a fully cocked CZ75 without the safety on?

Do you know how a CZ75 works?

Do you know that they make a CZ 75 with a decocker don't you??


http://www.cz-usa.com/products/view/cz-75-bd/


"Glock leg" is a silly term for a mistake that doesn't have anything to do with one specific holster or type of holster. In fact, I still don't know what you're talking about, or even insinuating. You don't shoot yourself in the leg (with any gun) because you picked the wrong holster.


You can shoot yourself in the leg if you pick a wrong/worn holster or for operator mistake with a Glock...negating it does not change that fact that it does happen.....a loaded Glock is more sensitive than a loaded DA/SA for bad fitting worn holster and operator mistake...a fact

That doesn't mean it isn't a dinosaur.

And you don't see that? Oh realllllly? Meet Beretta's newest offering: The Nano: http://www.berettausa.com/nano/

Yes another inexpensive tupperware offer from Beretta as the previous one from Bersa....they are entering that market but they are not exiting building SA/DA pistols as you assume...so, again, your point is???

That it really doesn't matter what BRAND you choose to love or hate.

I do no love or hate any brand period...in my opinion (and not only mine) a SA/DA design is superior to a striker fired pistol for the flexibility that design gives to me...period.

"Usually?" Oh, is that so? So "usually" ... but not Glock, S&W, or Springfield who sell the most. Or Ruger who just discontinued their P-series? So basically, that whole statement is incorrect.

Well, Glock started the whole trend, Springfield I do nto think they ever made SA/DA pistol they just make pistol to compete with Glock and 1911s, Ruger probably discontinued the P Series for cost reasons.

They are proving themselves to be the "bestest for the mostest." Hitting the sweet spot between safety, accuracy, shootability, reliability, value,

Exactly, they are a compromise is today cost obsessed worl....they work, do not get me wrong but is not something I would recommend for a beginner..that is my opinion and is not going to change, my friend can buy whatever he choose....
 
Do you know that they make a CZ 75 with a decocker don't you??
http://www.cz-usa.com/products/view/cz-75-bd/
Sorry, I'd assumed you, or he rather, wanted a .40.

You can shoot yourself in the leg if you pick a wrong/worn holster or for operator mistake with a Glock...negating it does not change that fact that it does happen.....a loaded Glock is more sensitive than a loaded DA/SA for bad fitting worn holster and operator mistake...a fact
You can shoot yourself in the leg with ANY pistol. Any good holster is going to be perfectly safe with the Glock. Yes, people have shot themselves in the leg with DA/SAs, too. (Heck, especially if they're newbies or freaked out by a stressful situation and forget to decock it!)

I'd dare say folks have shot themselves with Bersas, but I can't find evidence because so few people carry one.

they are entering that market but they are not exiting building SA/DA pistols as you assume...so, again, your point is???
They aren't announcing that they're stopping production of DA/SA guns today. Or tomorrow. But they're putting their toe in the waters, and for companies so long anchored to the idea of the old DA/SA design, that's VERY significant.

a SA/DA design is superior to a striker fired pistol for the flexibility that design gives to me...period.
For you? Maybe. But "flexibility" in how it works is not a benefit to a new shooter. It needs to work one way all the time. One process. One safety format. Do this thing every time, period. He can get fancy with multiple "flexible" manuals-of-arms later if he's inclined.

Well, Glock started the whole trend,
No, HK did. (Vp70)

Springfield I do nto think they ever made SA/DA pistol they just make pistol to compete with Glock and 1911s,
They import the Croatian HS2000 and sell it as the xD. Guess what's their hottest selling pistol? :)

Ruger probably discontinued the P Series for cost reasons.
Do you believe that it is CHEAPER for Ruger to shut down manufacturing that's been churning out the same basic gun for decades, come up with a new design, and then tool up to make a completely different gun ... when that gun uses probably $3 less metal than the old P-series? There's no savings there. Ruger simply had to make a gun that could compete somewhat on the same playing field with at the new high standard being set by the striker-fired designs.

I think that if you contemplate what you're saying there -- that the new striker-fired Rugers represent a cost-cutting measure over the old P-series -- you'll realize that it is an unreasonable claim.

...my friend can buy whatever he choose....
Ok, as long as you let him know that and don't ridicule or shame him into buying what YOU want.
 
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We're pretty far afield from the original question which was answered pretty well in the first few posts (if the potential buyer likes and shoots the Bersa best, get it. If he likes and shoots the Glock best, get that instead.) BUT...
As far as DA/SA being antiquated and striker fired pistols being the way to the future, striker fired pistols pre-date DA/SA (1906 Japanese Nambu vs. 1930's German P-38). I'm not an expert on this but I thought the P-38 introduced the world to DA/SA.

Also remember that a lot of old guys on this board remember narrow ties, then wide ties, then narrow ties again. For the ladies, hemlines go up, hemlines go down, then go back up again. DA/SA was the new thing, now striker fired pistols are in fashion. May we all live long enough to see which way the fashion winds blow again.

This is no knock on striker fired pistols, they can work well but they don't represent a one way ticket to small arms perfection. There are other paths to Nirvana as well.

My $0.02.

Dan

Bingo
 
For the OP, finding a holster for a Glock 22 is one of the easiest things to find, while you're going to need to do some searching to find a holster for a Bersa, and when you do find them, you will be very limited in your choices

Around here (Seattle) you can find holster for a Bersa full size every day of the week and twice on Sunday...:)
 
Around here (Seattle) you can find holster for a Bersa full size every day of the week and twice on Sunday...
A leather or kydex holster specifically made for the Bersa in .40 S&W, or are you talking about a generic fit holster of some kind?
 
Ok, as long as you let him know that and don't ridicule or shame him into buying what YOU want.

I suggested to him to get a DA/SA then it is his choice.

Contrary to your opinion SA/DA are not going anywhere and even the 1911 are alive and kicking....

Striker fired actions are among us since the very beginning of semiauto handguns themselves.

They are back in vogue only for one simple reason.....cost, weight (when coupled with a polymer frame which is the norm nowadays) and simplicity.

All the semiautos evolved and got better and reliable with time....US police departments finally dropped their six shooters when the wonder nines came around, demostrating absolute reliability and unbeatable magazine capacity.

Striker fired plastic pieces only simply improved the cost and weight equation...
 
A leather or kydex holster specifically made for the Bersa in .40 S&W, or are you talking about a generic fit holster of some kind?

Good fitting generic..with emphasis on good fitting. I got holsters for my Bersa online even from very small shops.
 
Here are the Bersa holster options available at Brownell's. You'll notice the list is small, and there are no models for the Bersa in .40S&W.

http://www.brownells.com/shooting-ac...7CMake_3=Bersa

Here are the G22 holsters available from Brownell's. I believe you have an option of 40 different holster models to choose from.

http://www.brownells.com/shooting-ac...lock__22&f_a=1


Just to mention the firn in my mind, Soft Armor has holster that fit the Bersa Thunder full line in any o ftheir product line
 
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