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Glock 22 vs. Bersa Thunder 40...Help me close the "sale" to my beginner friend....

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by saturno_v, Oct 15, 2013.

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  1. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

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    Soft Armor? The nylon pouch guys? That's about as close to a "generic" holster as you could get. The Bersa thunder fits in a "Size 16" ... as do several other medium sized autos.

    You talk about a bad holster being dangerous? And then recommend Soft Armor's products? :uhoh:

    Gads.
     
  2. saturno_v

    saturno_v Member

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    Sure, it's true.....you cannot prevent someone from shooting himself...leaving Bersa aside given the smaller commercial footprint, the fact is that "Glock Leg" it did become a well known slang term, I find no results on google for "Beretta leg" or "Sig leg"....:)

    People are not perfect we all make screwups sometimes....I tend to believe that a DA/SA design is more screwup resistant, especially for a beginner.

    Is not significant it's smart....there is a market for it and they are going after it, simple....thanks to polymer and a simpler striker fired action S&W did sell a full size service caliber pistol for $249 (with rebate) up to few years ago, the Sigma....again these pistols are very successfull...but, contrary to your assumption, they are not displacing other type of actions....they co-exists...

    They were not wildly successful...tupperware pistols really took off with Glock..that is what I meant....

    I believe that going from a full metal frame P Series to a polymer frame you save more than $3......

    And is not what you save...is the price that your brand can charge....
     
  3. saturno_v

    saturno_v Member

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    My Soft Armor and KNJ hip holsters fits very well indeed....I personally dislike leather and hard shell holsters.
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2013
  4. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

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    I guess that depends on the screwup. If they remember to decock it it will be safer. If they forget, quite a bit more dangerous.

    Yeees. And THAT is significant.

    They utterly did for two of the largest DA/SA pistol makers ever (S&W and Ruger). I suppose we won't know for sure how many more companies will abandon that design for some years yet to come.

    Ok. I was thinking mostly of them ditching their polymer-framed DA/SA guns. They haven't made almost any steel-framed pistols since 2004.

    ? Ok. So, it isn't that it costs you a lot of money to design a new gun and a WHOLE lot of money to build lines to make them, but it's that you can charge more for them? I thought you said they were popular because they were cheap?
     
  5. saturno_v

    saturno_v Member

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  6. Sam1911

    Sam1911 Moderator

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    They're a lot safer and more secure than nylon pouch holsters. Hold the gun tighter against the body, support it more rigidly, don't collapse when you draw, letting you more safely re-holster. The nylon pouch types are really not recommended except for extreme budgetary reasons.
     
  7. saturno_v

    saturno_v Member

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    I have to give credit to the striker fired tupperware that probably helped increase civilian handgun ownership (trough cost, media popularity, etc...)

    Don't think that my reasoning for prefering a DA/SA design is some sort of romantic attachment...no is not...my absolute favorite pistol is my loved Beretta 92/96 Series....a very soft spot for it...but I'm the first to recognize how that platform is no longer acceptable for CC duty...too big and heavy and with the slide mounted safety....I love it but I recognize its limits.
     
  8. saturno_v

    saturno_v Member

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    Wait a sec..there are nylon and nylon.....mine are quite rigid they do not collapse easily at all, especially the KNJ.

    Yes there are mom and pop crappy nylon onion peels wich are actually dangerous...

    I like how they wear...LE use them....
     
  9. JTQ

    JTQ Member

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  10. saturno_v

    saturno_v Member

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    I do not like leather holsters and I may try a Kydex.

    For my needs, my nylons work right, they do not flop around, they are fairly rigid and well anchored.
     
  11. David E

    David E Member

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    I don't see how a DA/SA is a more "flexible" platform than striker fired guns. Especially for a "gun newbie" who would have to commit to learning extra steps to ensure safe gun handling.

    As I mentioned, and Saturno ignored, trained cops have forgotten to decock their gun and holstered it, hammer cocked. An objective conclusion would be that DA/SA platforms may require more attention to gun handling protocols than a "gun newbie" or a lazy/occasional gun handler is willing to do, each time and every time.

    Striker fired guns like the Glock only require the trigger finger to be out of the trigger guard. This is easy to teach and easy to learn.

    Holster selection is at least as important as gun selection. "Almost" and "fairly" and "adequate" are red flags when used as holster descriptors.
     
  12. David E

    David E Member

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    On another note, the Walther PP is credited with being the first successful DA/SA handgun when it was introduced in 1929
     
  13. saturno_v

    saturno_v Member

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    Nothing is totally error proof....a cocked SA/DA pistol is almost impossible to ignore visually...again nothing is totally foolproof...


    Selecting a holster is not rocket science...you need to follow few good guidelines..
     
  14. JTQ

    JTQ Member

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    Rule #1 of holster selection - don't buy a nylon holster.
     
  15. David E

    David E Member

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    A finger left inside the trigger guard is visually hard to ignore, also.

    I dare say that selecting a holster for serious purposes is more important and more involved than you seem to think is necessary. This reveals quite a bit about you.
     
  16. saturno_v

    saturno_v Member

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    What does reveal about me?? Do you know my holster?? Did I ever said that a good holster is not necessary?? Do not put words in my mouth or assume things you do not know...
     
  17. mec

    mec Member

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    I recently check out a bersa 40 and 45. The 45 is slightly bigger but the feel and performance are just about indentical. Both required fifty or more rounds to settle in and become reliable with the several loads that I had. Both had very moderate recoil regardless of the load and they were accurate. Availability depends on what comes in on the boat but the people at Eagle Imports practice good customer service and do not treat basic good manners as a sign of weakness. They have a number of service centers around the country. The one in our area is a particularly skilled gunsmith who is impressed with the support he gets from Eagle.
    [​IMG]
     

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  18. David E

    David E Member

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    It reveals more than you realize.

    Look, if you're only using a nylon holster for recreational pursuits, then it's "fairly adequate" and suitable for your purposes.

    But if you're using it to carry concealed everyday, then that nylon holster is a problem.

    Which model are you using for what purpose? The clip-on with spare mag attached, or something else?

    And you still haven't addressed why you think a DA/SA is a more flexible platform for a newbie.
     
  19. David E

    David E Member

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    Please understand, I'm not saying that a quality DA/SA is worthless or impossible to shoot well. I'm just saying that they may not be the best choice for a gun newbie. But that doesn't mean he can't master it. He just needs to instill the extra steps required by the platform into his subconscious.

    I own several DA/SA designs and used them when I was a cop. I also shot competition with them, doing well enough that folks thought I was starting with the gun cocked in the holster. It apparently never occurred to them that it's possible to master the DA pull and subsequent SA transition.

    I've not shot them for a couple years, but when I handle them, I immediately recall the required gun handling protocols due to the previously acquired habits I burned into my subconscious. If I can do it, anyone can.....but they have to put in the time.

    .
     
  20. wow6599

    wow6599 Member

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    Bianch Accumold holsters are very, very good holsters. Don't let the material fool ya, they aren't like any other nylon holster.....carries like a cross between polymer & leather.

    BTW, has the guy bought a gun yet?
     
  21. bobandmikako

    bobandmikako Member

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    Back to the original question, he should get whichever one HE wants, and both are good choices. Chances are, he'll probably end up getting both at some point. I don't know many people who start shooting and only have one gun. Personally, I like DAO/LEM/DAK triggers better for most purposes, including concealed carry. I do like DA/SA for home defense guns around the house (i. e. nightstand gun). Good leather Bersa holsters are harder to find than good Glock holsters. UBG Holsters makes excellent quality Bersa holsters.
     
  22. saturno_v

    saturno_v Member

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    David


    I own and tried nylon holsters for my handguns from several brands....I immediately dismissed the cheap flimsy stuff (for example Uncle Mike's with brittle plastic clips, people got in trouble with these)

    The one that I prefer the most are the KNJ, a small maker from Arizona. I did talk directly to the gentleman making them and I tried few sizes till I settled on the right ones. They fit very well, are fairly rigid and I have no problem reholstering. The belt loops are wide and sturdy, and they come with included optional thick and wide metal clips, not plastic.
    Straps are high quality, they do not stretch and have metal thumb breaks inserts. They are not cheap by Nylon holster standards. I rarely carry full size nowadays, (pocket carry did become my norm with my little 9mm) and I prefer only OWB holsters, I do not carry IWB. If you carry a belt holster, the first rule is to have a nice quality, sturdy and wide belt and appropriate quality pants, even more important the the holster itself...I saw more then once people with nice fancy leather holsters carried on cheap Wal-Mart grade belts and jeans...what is the point of the perfect high quality holster hold by a $10 leather belt??
    My holsters do not flop around, the stay tight with the body, the straps never unclipped, the guns are nice and tight...never dropped a pistol due to a bad holster...
    I do not like leather holsters and they can be tricky...sometimes they still look good but they are already worn....

    In my opinion the SA/DA platform with decocker is better for a beginner, as I said before, because of a more mishandling-proof action when in DA mode. And I like the clear visual clue (hammer) about the condition of the gun, beginners tend to learn that well in my experience.

    Indeed...there are cheap ill fitting nylon holsters and nice quality sturdy nylon holsters....

    UPDATE on my friend saga....I think he's going with a used SIG 226 in perfect shape
     
  23. David E

    David E Member

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    Saturno,

    We agree on the belt.

    I would like to see a picture of your gun in that specific holster. Or at least, a link to one like it.

    While I agree with the "DA/SA is safer while in hammer down mode," the hammer doesn't always stay down!

    As mentioned, remembering to decock the gun can be a very serious issue. It seems to me a DAO design would better meet your requirements. But he can minimize this concern thru diligent training.

    Another issue is remedial action drills, specifically with slide mounted decockers. Since he's found a Sig, this is a moot point. (But make sure the Sig devices properly. Early ones had issues that cause lawsuits)

    A cocked hammer is a good visual indicator as to its cocked/uncocked status, but an XD/XDM, for example, does that job even better, as it not only indicates if it's cocked or not, it also reveals the loaded status of the chamber.

    It seems the issues you think are solved with a DA/SA are better solved with other action types.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2013
  24. saturno_v

    saturno_v Member

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    Modern SA/DA platform have a round in the chamber indicator
     
  25. R.Ph. 380

    R.Ph. 380 Member

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    Have him try a Bersa 45 UC. BETTER than the Glock. The weight gives it a steadiness and limited recoil. The glock is plastic and feels it. Ergonomics are just wrong and the looks, Well the Bersa wins there too.

    OK, Flame time..............................................................

    Bill
     
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