Glock and Change (a different kind of article)

[The Man With No Name]

Wow! I see alot of interesting things I want to address but I just can't get past the silly one. Children have been accidentally shooting people with guns for a long time. To think a child could not disengage a thumb safety or depress a grip safety is not reasonable thinking. Three year old or not. A healthy 3 year old has no problem overcoming even a heavy double action trigger pull. The real tragedy is the loaded firearms carelessly being left where a children can access them. This has nothing to do with the design of the Glock. If the Glock had been secured in the presence of a minor these shooting would have never occured. Is their one 1911 owner present that leaves his gun loaded with the safety engaged where his minor child can access it? Even one?

 

[BSA1]

Sam1911,

As a budding debater thank you for the conversation.

 

[TimboKhan]

Dudes, this s how a flock discussion should be!

 

[Snag]

I completely agree with the writer of that article about how Glock is one of the most successful handgun companies in modern history. No doubt, it's a household name to people that don't even own a gun. Whether or not Glock is milking their design I don't know. Porsche gets accused of the same thing since every car they make still looks like a VW Beetle. They do however, like Glock, keep selling.

Adding a external safety, a grip safety, or both would be bad idea for Glock for obvious reasons.

 

[WinThePennant]

Glocks are simply fabulous guns that were ahead of their time. It took the others 25 years to catch up, and they still aren't as good in a number of important ways.

 

[Tom Fury]

Real change would be if he could make it pretty...
Cheers, TF
Glock 20&21
Not the first ones either...

 

[The Man With No Name]

Sam1911,

You present some strong arguments in support of your client , the GLOCK. Just as I have come to expect from a lawyer of your experience.

Imho the GLOCK is made for lowest common denominator. By this I mean departments/agencies save mucho bucks by adopting a gun that trains the officer to be proficient with it in the shortest amount of time.

Another brillant tactic was selling GLOCK handguns to law enforcement agencies at low prices knowing full well that administrators are aways looking for ways to stretch their budget and are not "gun guys". GLOCK also recognize that the Police carrying his guns automatically gave it creditability with the general public as a safe, powerful handgun.

GLOCK also knows that any money he loses by selling to LEO agencies he will more than make up with sales to civilians.

The GLOCK is far from perfect.

It has lackluster accuracy.

The trigger is prone to malfunctions. A LEO friend recently had the trigger on his gun totally lock up and refuse to fire during qualification. They disassembled the gun, could not find anything, reassembled it and it worked fine. Failure to work without a detectable cause is disturbing and has resulted a lose of confidence in his gun.

I find the lack of external safety a design fault. The need for a grip safety to prevent children from firing the gun was demonstrated over a century ago by Daniel Wesson. As the story goes Wesson thought he had designed a child proof revolver so he gave one to his children to test. A short time later there was bang so back to the drawing board. The result was the addition of the grip safety, the so-called lemon squeezer.

Sadly two tragic incidents recently involving three year old children shooting a adult after having gaining access to a loaded GLOCK have been reported.

GASTON GLOCK was a pioneer in use of polymers in a handgun design but it far from being the pinnacle of handgun design.

Respectfully.

p.s. Sam1911 I missed your last post as I was busy shooting my mouth off typing this post. I concur that the addition of a grip safety would be a refinement of the basic design and imho a much needed safety feature. This omission was corrected in the Springfield XD model.

1. Training. Other than what they receive in BLET and small corrections made during qualifications yearly the majority of officers in this country receive no training ever with their handguns. Those that do shoot them more than once per year (100 round qualification/50 day course plus 50 night course) do so usually at their own expense. A Glock has no more or no less incurred training expense than anything else regardless. The rules of basic safety are the same no matter what you have in your holster. Basic retention only varies by holster and pretty much any level retention holster is available for any modern choice from any major holster maker targeting the le community.
2. Selling Glocks to agencies at low prices. Yes that is a brilliant marketing strategy. I guess Glock should be held to account for employing a stratery that Colt, Smith and Wesson, and every other major maker targeting the US LE market have always used and still use?
3. Lackluster accuracy. Really? I think this has proven NOT to be the case on ranges in civilian and leo hands for decades now. In my own department average scores went up with the transition from Smith and Wesson .357's to Beretta 92's, and went up again with the transition to Glock 17's. Does that mean the average Glock 17 is inherently more accurate than the other guns I mentioned? Of course not. It certainly doesn't mean it is inherently less accurate either.
4. A trigger prone to malfunctions? So you had one LEO friend that had his malfunction? I seriously doubt that happened. If it is so then why are officers all across this nation still carrying them? Well past 20million Glocks have been produced now. Where are all these reports of the mass malfunctions in triggers? I just didn't start carrying one. I've been playing with them in competition since the first 17 came out to now where a 17 rides in my holster for duty and a 23C is my off duty carry piece. I've seen modifications done that can make the gun unsafe but the same could be said of any gun.
5. Children shooting adults. I've already addressed this once but will once again ask you personally. Would you leave a 1911 pattern gun fully loaded, with a round in the chamber, with a fully functional grip safet, and with the manual safety engaged in the presence of a minor just sitting around while you did yard work, worked on your car, watched TV in another room, ect.? I have had a loaded Glock around my children for well over a decade and no one has gotten shot yet. When my children are around my loaded Glock is in my holster. When my children are around and I am not the only other loaded gun is in my wife's holster. I have a child old enough to be at home while I run to the store. I don't leave loaded guns sitting around while no adult is supervising him. What do these tragedies have to do with the specific design of any striker fired pistol other than the supposition that a grip safety "may have" prevented them? I can tell you with 100% certainty what would have prevented these tragedies. Responsible adults owning these guns vs. careless adults. Do your really believe a grip safety makes a loaded gun child proof?

 

[Coop45]

What really angers me about that ugly piece of plastic junk, is that after I was duped into shooting one I had to eat my words except for the ugly part. LOL!! Oh yeah, I ordered one that day and have been enjoying it ever since.

 

[PabloJ]

Here is a blog/article of a different kind. Ive voiced my opinion on this same thing on this board before as I do agree with it.

http://militaryarms.blogspot.com/

I would love to see a single stack or a true redesign from them. There are only so many combinations of frame and slide that you can slap together and call it something else. Not everyone wants to lug around 30rds of ammo.

Unlike plastic Crocs Clogs Glocks are still selling very well. Just because product has not undergone major change in long time does not mean it will become unsuccessful look at Swiss watch with little crown on the dial and mechanical movement inside. These watches are frighteningly expensive and in age of sophisticated cell phones are still selling well.

 

[Fishslayer]

While I'm at it, your dog stinks ...

Hey! Hey! HEY! Well, now you've simply gone TOO far, sir!

Besides, everybody knows the pinnacle of handgun engineering was achieved with the 3rd Gen S&Ws.
A proper handgun is made of metal & has a hammer.

I wonder if we'd have even heard of St. Gaston of Polymer if they hadn't received a free nationwide publicity blitz from an hysterical media about an "undetectable plastic pistol!" when they were introduced? No substitute for brand recognition and even non gun people knew what a Glock was.

Dunno where people get the idea that Glocks are not accurate. When I had a couple sips of the Austrian Kool Ade the thing that surprised me most was how accurate the thing was.

If my product was as successful commercially as Glock I would be very loathe to make any drastic changes.

 

[tarosean]

Well past 20million Glocks have been produced now.

I think your numbers are off.. While extremely popular, in 1999 they marked their 2 millionth gun with a special edition. It took 17yrs to reach that number. I seriously doubt they ramped up production to 1.5m per year since then.

 

[Tinker]

Sam1911,

You basically summed things up nicely with your first reply. I totally agree.

The author of that article was working from a "want".....

"I'm bored with this....I want something else from you guys to shoot."

Glock produces pistols to supply a "need". And they do that well......

Police department bean counter: "We need 400 new reliable pistols for the best price by January 1st."

I love watching most of the MAC guy's videos on YT and I would dearly love to see Glock make a slim, tiny 9mm single stack (like the SW Shield), but that is a just a "want", too.

I also "want" Gaston Glock to adopt and include me in his will. That'll happen about the time they come out with the slim 9mm.

 

[The Man With No Name]

I think your numbers are off.. While extremely popular, in 1999 they marked their 2 millionth gun with a special edition. It took 17yrs to reach that number. I seriously doubt they ramped up production to 1.5m per year since then.

My mistake. Don't know where that number came out of my mind from. The 2009 Glock Annual cover states that 4 million Glocks are "on duty". As of 8/17/2012 Glock advises they are still 600,000 behind on pistol orders. Wait times are up to 150 days. I'm guessing they are safely past 5 million but will ask the next time I call them.

 

[mdauben]

Cops generally are poor shots and need all the training time they can get on the range. Since the Glock is simplier to shoot training time is cut at the expense of having officers spend more time on the range.

If true (and I might tend to agree), this sounds like a flaw in police policy and practice, rather than a design flaw in the Glock.

I want the most accurate gun possible but I am pretty demanding about not getting shot first.

Since extreme "bullseye" target accuracty is often accompanied by problems with reliability, I'll happily accept the "combat" accuracy and near flawless operation of my Glocks.

I am not aware of any reported incidents of three year old children firing any other make of handgun. The revolver lacks a grip safety but makes up for it to a certain extent by a heavy double action trigger pull.

So, no child has ever fired a loaded gun before these two incidents? A few minutes with google fround this story, about a 3 year old who shot himself with a .22 Beretta earlier this month. AFAIK, all Beretta .22 pistols have thumb safeties yet he still managed to fire the weapon.

Admittedly, your examples may be two of the more high profile recent occurances but accidental discharges by children getting their hands on loaded guns have probably occured as long as guns have existed, certainly they were happening well before the Glock 17 was a gleam in Anton Glock's eye. In every single case fault can be traced back to human error on the part of the responsible adults involved.

 

[ugaarguy]

a Glock just flat out WORKS.

(As does an xD. As does an M&P. Because they're 99% the same thing.)

Sam, by your reasoning a Glock is 99% the same as a 1911.

 

[Sam1911]

Sam, by your reasoning a Glock is 99% the same as a 1911.

Could be.

But it isn't polymer-framed, striker fired, thumb-safety-less. So let's call it 88% the same.

 

[GlackAttack]

Glocks are space-age lead slinging devices. I too would like to see more single stack designs. The G36 has great ergonomics..

 

[Old Fuff]

For someone that knew next to nothing about the handgun business when he started out, Gaston Glock has done pretty well.

Today he is a major manufacturer of service pistols, and like any good businessman he looks at it like a business.

Development of new products costs money – and a lot of it. In his perfect world the idea is to make a large number of models (within reason) using existing tooling. By doing this he is able to reap the maximum amount of profit with the least additional investment.

But this only works so long as the demand for product equals production resources. If his machines aren’t running he won’t be making money.

From the Old Fuff’s outside-looking-in point of view it would seem that the Glock Works aren’t seeing much, if any downtime. If competition cuts into his market share to a serious degree I suspect he will do something about it.

Potential buyers look at the company and wonder why they don’t come out with whatever new version, or changes to older ones they would like to see. The answer is because of the way things are now, he doesn’t need to.

Concerning the little S&W Safety Hammerless revolver with a grip safety. The safety was part of the original design from the beginning, and was an added precaution to prevent an accidental discharge. However it wasn’t long before someone noticed that it made shooting the gun more difficult – if not impossible – for a small child. Without hesitation they added this to their advertising.