Glock Boiling???

[GLOOB]

This thread is clearly divisible into facts and observations backed by research, knowledge, and/or experience. And uninformed opinions.

My uninformed opinion is that my uninformed opinion is worthless. My only opinion that I'll share is this one:

If I thought Glock polymer was hurt by boiling water, I wouldn't own one. I have many times shot enough rounds to make water boil off the barrel, and I have many times gotten it wet. Just leaving a Glock in direct sunlight can get it close to those temps. I'm so glad it hasn't swollen out of spec or melted, yet. To anyone that believes boiling water will ruin their Glock, why do you still own yours!?

This sounds like new ground for Glock torture testing. We've already seen Glocks frozen in ice. Now it's time for someone to make some Glock stew and post it on Youtube.

 

[coolluke01]

As you wish. Here is the video of me boiling my glock 26 mag.

http://youtu.be/FwuKCXe-D1M

 

[JohnBT]

It won't be long now and this thread will begin approaching the memorable historical significance of the tactical wheelbarrow. Iow, internet lore.

 

[Honest John]

Ok, so I know this sounds weird. Has anyone heard about rehydrating the polymer in their Glocks?
I have a Pearce grip extension for my G26. It adds two rounds. When loaded with 12 the number 7 and 9 rounds rattle. I can poke them from the back and they will move back and forth. I called Pearce and they suggested that the polymer needs to be rehydrated. Boiling the mag in water for 15 mins is supposed to rehydrate it.
Ok, So I tried it. I'll post the video on youtube and put a link on here later. As you may have guessed it didn't fix the issue.
I called Glock today and asked them if they had ever heard about the need to rehydrate their guns. They had never heard about it. He put me on hold and asked some others in the office if they had ever heard about this. No one had. I think they thought I was crazy.
The guy from pearce said that an armor had cleaned all of his departments Glocks with a sonic cleaner and some solvent. None of the guns would function properly after. After boiling his own Glock he fixed all the problems he was having with the malfunctions! After boiling the glock mag I could tell that it was softer. When fired the Glocks flex, if it was too dry it could be too stiff?

Has anyone heard of this?

I've shot a Glock for 16 years but know very little about plastics. I have never heard of rehydrating plastics.
My question is - did the perceived problem affect the functioning of the pistol and magazine combination in any way?

 

[Ben86]

It won't be long now and this thread will begin approaching the memorable historical significance of the tactical wheelbarrow.

I know what my next weekend project is going to be.

 

[coolluke01]

I never had any problem with the mag and the rattling rounds. It was annoying and I did fear the possibility of a failure. Rapping the base of the mag on the counter a few times seems to seat the rounds better with less rattling.

This quickly expanded far beyond the realm of loose rounds, to snake oil and mysticism.

 

[481]

It won't be long now and this thread will begin approaching the memorable historical significance of the tactical wheelbarrow. Iow, internet lore.

I think that it is there already (this one is replete with all sorts of misinformation ), John.

Despite the fact that very hot/boiling water will depolymerize Nylon through hydrolytic attack (hydroxyls attack the carbonyl group of the polyamide) and will eventually result in mechanical failure (fracture) of the polymer (Nylon), we have several here who've elected to dispute what happens when Nylon 6 or 66 is exposed to very hot/boiling water simply because they haven't experienced any visible damage or failure yet.

So...go ahead and boil your Glocks, toss 'em into the dishwasher and let 'em go 'til they are sparkly clean. You might get away with it a few or even several times, but chemistry, harsh mistress that she is, will eventually catch up with you and you will see your polymer frame fail (cracks, fracture, etc).

Incidentally, I own several (21, actually) Glocks and do so in spite of this "issue" (it isn't really ) simply because I respect the qualities of the engineering polymer used in their construction.

 

[Ben86]

So...go ahead and boil your Glocks, toss 'em into the dishwasher and let 'em go 'til they are sparkly clean.

But even people who use a dishwasher in a normal manner and place polymer kitchen wear in there ought to admit that over time the harsh cycles of the dishwasher degrade or downright destroys the polymer material they are made of.

I guess Glock polymer isn't subject to any of the same chemical limitations of lesser polymer.

 

[481]

I've shot a Glock for 16 years but know very little about plastics. I have never heard of rehydrating plastics.
My question is - did the perceived problem affect the functioning of the pistol and magazine combination in any way?

No need to rehydrate anything, the polymer is fine as it is. Besides, Nylon will absorb atmospheric moisture (humidity/water) all by itself over time and you don't need to do a darned thing like subjecting your gun to excessive treatment.

This has gotta be the most messed up thread that I've ever read here.

 

[481]

But even people who use a dishwasher in a normal manner and place polymer kitchen wear in there ought to admit that over time the harsh cycles of the dishwasher degrade or downright destroys the polymer material they are made of.

I guess Glock polymer isn't subject to any of the same chemical limitations of lesser polymer.

Such durability is testament that Glock's formulation is exemplary (not to mention his manufacturing process evidenced by the hard, glassine finish that tells me his molds are set at the perfect temperature), no doubt about that.

However, abuse it enough and even Gaston's wunder-formula will fail.

 

[JohnKSa]

But even people who use a dishwasher in a normal manner and place polymer kitchen wear in there ought to admit that over time the harsh cycles of the dishwasher degrade or downright destroys the polymer material they are made of.

You guys are in agreement, 481's comments were sarcasm.

Nylon doesn't gradually soften as it is heated like polyethylene; it suddenly turns into a liquid like state when the melting temperature is reached.

I'm not sure that the facts support that. There are two high temperature specs quoted for nylon 6 that I've seen. One, in the neighborhood of the temperature you mention (over 400F) is the "never exceed" figure past which the frame will be irreparably damaged/melted. However, there is a much lower figure--somewhere around 250F, which is quoted as a "let it cool before you use it" figure. In other words, the frame is not being damaged at the lower temperature simply by getting that hot, but the material's mechanical properties are temporarily compromised and the product shouldn't be subjected to stress until it cools down again.

In addition, there does appear to be some anecdotal evidence from folks who have used boiling water to sufficiently soften the dustcover to eliminate the "pig-nose" non-problem.

Besides, this whole issue should be a closed subject given that there is sufficient evidence from a variety of sources to convince anyone who's willing to listen to reason that really hot water isn't healthy for the Glock frame material due the fact that it is hydrolytically attacked by water above 120 degrees.

Finally, I hate to bring this up, but are we REALLY supposed to believe that ONLY polymer magazines rattle? Because if we acknowledge that metal magazines sometimes rattle too, that leaves us in the even more nonsensical dilemma of trying to determine how to rehydrate our metal magazines in order to restore their dimensions and make them stop rattling.

It's been my experience that double column magazines sometimes rattle regardless of their composition and apparently independent of their "hydration level".

 

[481]

Finally, I hate to bring this up, but are we REALLY supposed to believe that ONLY polymer magazines rattle? Because if we acknowledge that metal magazines sometimes rattle too, that leaves us in the even more nonsensical dilemma of trying to determine how to rehydrate our metal magazines in order to restore their dimensions and make them stop rattling.

It's been my experience that double column magazines sometimes rattle regardless of their composition and apparently independent of their "hydration level".

Well, now you've done it.

I am sure that we'll soon see a thread on how someone has decided that they can change the dimensions of their metal magazine bodies simply by immersing them in molten lead or molten aluminum.

 

[GLOOB]

Despite the fact that very hot/boiling water will depolymerize Nylon through hydrolytic attack (hydroxyls attack the carbonyl group of the polyamide) and will eventually result in mechanical failure (fracture) of the polymer (Nylon), we have several here who've elected to dispute what happens when Nylon 6 or 66 is exposed to very hot/boiling water simply because they haven't experienced any visible damage or failure yet.

Exposing a Glock to sunlight causes damage too. Unless it's much hotter (steam) or strongly acidic, this hydrolytic attack would be quite slow. While the potentially beneficial (just keeping an open mind, here) hydration of the nylon would occur quite quickly.

Water boils at 212F, or so, BTW. Not 250F. If you turn up the heat, the water doesn't get hotter. It just boils off faster. So even if 250F would cause temporary changes, no big deal. It's not going to get that hot, and you wouldn't be shooting it while it's 250F, anyway, unless you can fit a cooking mitt in the trigger guard.

Why don't we all just keep an open mind when we're discussing interesting topics? You're the one who seems to dispute the fact that nylon6 absorbs water and undergoes dimensional changes as a result. This dimensional change (swelling) could in fact stop a magazine from rattling. It doesn't take much. Even changing the brand of ammo can stop a magazine from rattling. Question is, how long would it last, even if it worked?

 

[JohnBT]

"Why don't we all just keep an open mind"

"While the potentially beneficial"

Potentially? You know what they say, if your mind is too open your brain falls out.

Okay, tomorrow's topic: Should I put my Glock in the pressure cooker?

 

[481]

Exposing a Glock to sunlight causes damage too. Unless it's much hotter (steam) or strongly acidic, this hydrolytic attack would be quite slow. While the potentially beneficial (just keeping an open mind, here) hydration of the nylon would occur quite quickly.

That's why a UV inhibitor (carbon black) is added to the polymer. At room temperature (68F/20C) the process of any significant hydrolysis (with whatever absorbed water is present in the polymer) may for all practical purposes be considered to be so slow as to be immeasurable.

Why don't we all just keep an open mind when we're discussing interesting topics?

Unless you can somehow prove that the immutable laws of chemistry have changed with regard to the process of depolymerization, there is nothing to keep an open mind about. The laws of chemistry and process of depolymerization remain unchanged irrespective of your opinion.

Water boils at 212F, or so, BTW. Not 250F. If you turn up the heat, the water doesn't get hotter. It just boils off faster.

You have an impressive grasp of the obvious. Thanks for sharing.

You're the one who seems to dispute the fact that nylon6 absorbs water and undergoes dimensional changes as a result.

That's awfully dishonest of you. I've said nothing of the sort. Feel free to show us all where I've said such a thing.

In fact, I have made it very clear in post #109 above that-

No need to rehydrate anything, the polymer is fine as it is. Besides, Nylon will absorb atmospheric moisture (humidity/water) all by itself over time and you don't need to do a darned thing like subjecting your gun to excessive treatment.

If you can't understand what you've read and can only misrepresent what you've seen, then I would appreciate it if you wouldn't bother quoting me at all.

My uninformed opinion is that my uninformed opinion is worthless.

There ya go.

 

[481]

Okay, tomorrow's topic: Should I put my Glock in the pressure cooker?

That's funny!

I'd bet that a video of that little piece of silliness would go "viral" in less than a day and soon everyone'd be doing it.

 

[GLOOB]

Unless you can somehow prove that the immutable laws of chemistry have changed with regard to the process of depolymerization, there is nothing to keep an open mind about. The laws of chemistry and process of depolymerization remain unchanged irrespective of your opinion.

Is there an immutable law that says boiling a Glock mag for 10 minutes causes significant damage? Or are you taking one immutable fact and painting broad strokes with it without further thought?

That's why a UV inhibitor (carbon black) is added to the polymer.

Thank you for also stating the obvious. I wasn't trying to be insulting, but if you'd like to get into a contest, god help you. Carbon black works pretty good, but if you think your properly hydrated Glock will last forever in the sun, you need to revisit your immutable laws of chemistry and figure out how to read them. I mentioned the sunlight damage to make the point that damage is relative. How much damage? How fast? These are important considerations, because saying that boiling a Glock for 10 minutes causes irreparable damage, and saying that shooting your Glock in sunlight for a shooting session causes irreparable damage, both statements are correct. But it's not going to stop people from shooting their Glock outdoors.

At room temperature (68F/20C) the process of any significant hydrolysis (with whatever absorbed water is present in the polymer) may for all practical purposes be considered to be so slow as to be immeasurable.

I'm sure this is true. Again, why are you stating the obvious? Weren't we talking about boiling water?

That's awfully dishonest of you. I've said nothing of the sort. Feel free to show us all where I've said such a thing.

In fact, I have made it very clear in post #109 above that-

Quote:
No need to rehydrate anything, the polymer is fine as it is. Besides, Nylon will absorb atmospheric moisture (humidity/water) all by itself over time and you don't need to do a darned thing like subjecting your gun to excessive treatment.

Well, then I guess I owe you an apology. Let me rephrase. You seem to deny the possibility that boiling a Glock might be able to significantly change it, structurally. Yes, you are quite adept at stating the obvious. Nylon absorbs atmospheric moisture. Amazing. This tells us nothing about the rate at which is equalizes.

A Glock that is stored for years in a dry environment may well be dimensionally different than the same gun stored in a humid environment. And changing the level of hydration by boiling may very well make a lasting change (as in months/years), depending on the rate of equalization with the environment. Just an example, here: wood also absorbs moisture from the environment. A good quality wood bow has to be kept at an optimum humidity, or it must be laquered. If it is allowed to get wet, you can't just hang it up and let it dry overnight. It might take months or years to dry out at room temp/humidity. (An environment that is too dry, will also damage the bow.) So even though the level of moisture in the wood equalizes with the atmosphere, you can make a lasting and significant change to it with just a short dunk in water.

Could nylon react in a similar way? Maybe it doesn't. I don't know. Do you? Is this one of your immutable laws?

Your grasp of chemisty is quite impressive. I hope you will be a teacher some day, so that you can pass on your immutable knowledge to others. Just stay away from philosophy, because that requires thinking. And engineering, because that requires practical application. But anything that can be painted in black and white, you should be ace at. Maybe math or the immutable chemistry. By all means, please continue your lecture.

 

[wickedsprint]

That's funny!

I'd bet that a video of that little piece of silliness would go "viral" in less than a day and soon everyone'd be doing it.

So that's not how they make their sub-compacts??

 

[coolluke01]

No you have to put them in the dryer on high heat to do that.

The pressure cooker is not a bad idea! It would raise the temperature you could boil it at and expedite the process.

Could someone explain the hydraulic attack and depolymerization problem? Is this really a big concern? How does it impact the polymer? How can it be that is can occur at 120 deg as someone stated?

 

[paintballdude902]

ive heard about people using KY lubricant on their polymer guns to preserve/treat/care for the polymer. but idk how true it is

 

[coolluke01]

hahaha I think they meant something that rhymed with glock.

 

[481]

Is there an immutable law that says boiling a Glock mag for 10 minutes causes significant damage? Or are you taking one immutable fact and painting broad strokes with it without further thought?


Thank you for also stating the obvious. I wasn't trying to be insulting, but if you'd like to get into a contest, god help you. Carbon black works pretty good, but if you think your properly hydrated Glock will last forever in the sun, you need to revisit your immutable laws of chemistry and figure out how to read them. I mentioned the sunlight damage to make the point that damage is relative. How much damage? How fast? These are important considerations, because saying that boiling a Glock for 10 minutes causes irreparable damage, and saying that shooting your Glock in sunlight for a shooting session causes irreparable damage, both statements are correct. But it's not going to stop people from shooting their Glock outdoors.


I'm sure this is true. Again, why are you stating the obvious? Weren't we talking about boiling water?

Well, then I guess I owe you an apology. Let me rephrase. You seem to deny the possibility that boiling a Glock might be able to significantly change it, structurally. Yes, you are quite adept at stating the obvious. Nylon absorbs atmospheric moisture. Amazing. This tells us nothing about the rate at which is equalizes.

A Glock that is stored for years in a dry environment may well be dimensionally different than the same gun stored in a humid environment. And changing the level of hydration by boiling may very well make a lasting change (as in months/years), depending on the rate of equalization with the environment. Just an example, here: wood also absorbs moisture from the environment. A good quality wood bow has to be kept at an optimum humidity, or it must be laquered. If it is allowed to get wet, you can't just hang it up and let it dry overnight. It might take months or years to dry out at room temp/humidity. (An environment that is too dry, will also damage the bow.) So even though the level of moisture in the wood equalizes with the atmosphere, you can make a lasting and significant change to it with just a short dunk in water.

Could nylon react in a similar way? Maybe it doesn't. I don't know. Do you? Is this one of your immutable laws?

Your grasp of chemisty is quite impressive. I hope you will be a teacher some day, so that you can pass on your immutable knowledge to others. Just stay away from philosophy, because that requires thinking. And engineering, because that requires practical application. But anything that can be painted in black and white, you should be ace at. Maybe math or the immutable chemistry. By all means, please continue your lecture.

I just stated some factual information. Your inability to digest it doesn't mean that it is incorrect.

For someone who freely admits to having no knowledge of the chemical processes being discussed here, you've done nothing more than manage to prove it for a third time.

This thread is clearly divisible into facts and observations backed by research, knowledge, and/or experience. And uninformed opinions.

My uninformed opinion is that my uninformed opinion is worthless.

Based upon this admission (in conjunction with your clear conviction to not let the facts get in your way), it is clear that you have mistaken a lack of knowledge as being a desirable thing and fall into the latter group that you describe.

I have no remedy for such obtuseness and no desire to entertain it.

Enjoy.

 

[coolluke01]

Ok, Please stay off my thread. You boys want to quibble go somewhere else.

 

[9mmepiphany]

I think this has gone far enough and we are now just going in circles which won't come to a accepted conclusion without testing which I doubt anyone here is willing to conduct.

I think there is enough information here for readers to make an informed decision. With that I'm going to close the thread