Glock Malfunction/Lack of Load Data/Hodgon Reloading Manual

[Grunt81]

Hello my fellow reloaders,

I am having a heck of a time getting a good load for 147grain Xtreme Copper Plated Round Nose with CFE Pistol. I think the issue may be a lack of pressure in the case. The Hodgon website for CFE Pistol and 147grain XTP shows a max load of 4.2 grains at a COAL of 1.11". The Alliant Powder website shows data for a 147 grain Speer Gold Dot at a COAL of 1.13

It is a safe to assume (2) things:
1) rounds nose bullets are longer than hollowpoints and may need to be seated longer.
2) When adjusting COAL for a load, it is safe to start long and gradually seat deeper while looking for signs of overpressure at the primer.

I have understand that copper plated bullets should be loaded at lower end Jacketed velocities or higher end lead velocities.
I have loaded up these 147grain Xtreme round nose with 3.9 grains of CFE Pistol at a COAL of 1.160". After testing those, I loaded more up with the same charge of 3.9 grains at a COAL of 1.152". Both times I had a couple of failures to eject. Both times, I also had the firing pin fail to detonate the primer, up to 30% of the time 3x in one magazine of 10rds).
CFE Pistol is a medium-burning powder and 3.9 grains of it maybe fills 1/3 of the case of the mixed brass I'm using. I think that I may need to seat the bullets deeper, in order to decrease the volume the powder has to burn, in order to create more pressure, velocity, and blow-back.
I have fired a friend's reloads of the exact same bullet, using 3.9 grains of Unique seated at a COAL of 1.115". That load was more accurate while the load I'm describing are impacting to the right.
My Lyman 49th Edition Reloading Manual lists data for Speer 147 grain TMJ at a COAL of 1.115" and cast lead 147 grain at even shorter than that. It shows a profile of the TMJ and it appears flatter and shorter than the Xtreme round nose. Also, CFE Pistol is a new powder and I doubt if any reloading manuals list data for it.

1) Does anyone own the Hodgon Reloading Manual?

2) If so, it the same exact info that's available online, or is there data for more types of bullets?

3) Should my correct course of action be to seat deeper?

4) Anyone ever had the firing pin fail to detonate the primer while reloading for a Glock 17 (I'm using Remington 1.5 and Federal small pistol primers)?

5) According to other manuals, are 147 grain copper plated/fmj generally loaded short?

Thanks for any input.

 

[LiveLife]

CFE Pistol is a new powder and I doubt if any reloading manuals list data for it.

CFE Pistol is a new powder and you won't find load data in older manuals. As you posted, you will find load data on Hodgdon's website - http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/

147 gr Hornady XTP AutoComp OAL 1.100" Start 3.6 gr (827 fps) 27,900 PSI - Max 4.0 gr (916 fps) 32,800 PSI

Since the published load data used JHP with different bullet nose shape/length than X-Treme plated RN bullet you are using, you will need to determine the working OAL that will work with your barrel and powder charge that will reliably cycle the slide and extract/eject the spent cases.

Using the OAL/COL listed in published load data won't ensure it will work optimally with your pistol/barrel as it simply indicates the cartridge length used for measuring average maximum chamber pressures for the particular bullet.

Since pistol/barrel construction and dimensions can vary from brand/model and bullet nose shape (ogive)/bullet length vary from different manufacturers to affect reliability of feeding/chambering and bullet seating depth (which changes chamber pressures), reloaders need to determine the working OAL for each pistol/barrel and bullet used prior to powder work up.

1. First, maximum OAL is determined using the barrel drop test outlined in this thread - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=506678

2. Many 9mm factory barrels can accommodate RN bullets to SAAMI max OAL of 1.169" but this does not mean that max OAL of 1.169" will reliably feed and chamber finished rounds from the magazine. We use function check test to determine the working OAL by locking the slide back and feeding a dummy round (no powder, no primer) from the magazine by releasing the slide without riding it. OAL is incrementally decreased until the dummy round reliably feeds/chambers from the magazine and the working OAL can vary from 1.169" down to 1.050" for RN bullets depending on the pistol/barrel. Chances are, your Glock/barrel may support longer working OAL to 1.160" (depending on the bullet) and this means bullet base will be seated not as deep as the HP bullet used for load data and you'll need to use higher powder charges than what is published to reliably cycle the slide.

3. Once you determine the working OAL, then you can proceed to powder work up by referencing available load data. Increasing the powder charge from published start charge, initially identify the powder charge that will reliably cycle the slide and extract/eject the rounds. Then monitor the accuracy trends as you work up towards max charge.

I have understand that copper plated bullets should be loaded at lower end Jacketed velocities or higher end lead velocities.

I have loaded up these 147grain Xtreme round nose with 3.9 grains of CFE Pistol at a COAL of 1.160". After testing those, I loaded more up with the same charge of 3.9 grains at a COAL of 1.152". Both times I had a couple of failures to eject.

But since Hodgdon only published load data for JHP and not plated RN, you'll need to carefully increase the powder charge (I would use .1 gr increments) until your slide reliably cycles to extract/eject spent cases and feed/chamber the rounds from the magazine. If the 1.160" reliably feed/chamber rounds from the magazine, I would stick to using 1.160" OAL and test 4.0 gr. If you still have slide cycling issues, I would test 4.1 gr and 4.2 gr.

I think that I may need to seat the bullets deeper, in order to decrease the volume the powder has to burn, in order to create more pressure, velocity, and blow-back.

No. Glock barrels have longer leade and very smooth start of rifling and decreasing the OAL will increase high pressure gas leakage before the bullet's bearing surface engages the rifling to build chamber pressure. To increase chamber pressure when you are using insufficient powder charge to reliably cycle the slide, you need to increase the powder charge. To minimize high pressure gas leakage, you want to keep OAL longer so the bearing surface of the bullet is closer to the start of rifling.

With that said, to add to the confusion, shorter OAL will help with initial chamber pressure build up. Since I load for multiple pistols/barrels, I use 1.135" OAL with 115/124/125 gr RN bullets and up to 1.145" with 147 gr RN bullets for reliable feeding/chambering. You could try 3.9/4.0 gr at 1.145" OAL to see if that will improve your reliability of slide cycling/extraction/ejection or keep the longer 1.160" and increase powder charge to 4.0/4.1/4.2 gr. In the end, accuracy may be the determining factor and I would use whichever OAL/powder charge that produces greater accuracy.

Anyone ever had the firing pin fail to detonate the primer while reloading for a Glock 17

Primer not firing could be from primer not seated deep enough to set the tip of the anvil against the priming compound. If the primer fires on second strike, make sure you are seating the primers deep enough by loading the finished rounds in a bullet tray and running your finger tips over the primers. The primers should feel slightly below flush (or at least flush). If you feel any high primers, seat these primers deeper.

If the primer does not fire on subsequent strikes and leaves shallow indentations on the primer cup, you may need to inspect the striker and the striker channel/tube and clean the fouling build up and/or replace the striker.

 

[wlkjr]

I've used and still have some Xtreme 147's but only with Titegroup. At lower velocities I occasionally get some tumbling. The 147's are the only bullet that I've noticed this with.

 

[higgite]

bds, good post.

Grunt81, when the primers fail to ignite, does the firing pin leave a mark on them? The reason I ask is that I recently had a problem with a brand new pistol where the firing pin occasionally was not striking the primer. The pistol manufacturer fixed it under warranty.

 

[rbernie]

4) Anyone ever had the firing pin fail to detonate the primer while reloading for a Glock 17 (I'm using Remington 1.5 and Federal small pistol primers)?

Yes, and it either caused by a primer that wasn't seated properly or a striker spring that was tired and sad.

BTW - always replace the recoil spring when you replace the striker spring in a Glock.

 

[Grunt81]

Wow! Thanks for all the feedback, especially from bds! I'm sorry I should have mentioned that I'm running a 4.49" stainless steel Storm Lake barrel. I know the stock Glock barrel is very forgiving as far as OAL, but I think the Storm Lake barrel is supposed to have a "match" chamber.

I went to the range today and loaded up 30 rounds for the Glock 17 and 30 rounds for the Beretta 92F. They all had the same charge of 3.9 grains. I fired 3, 10-shot groups from each pistol at a distance of 17 yards (indoor range).

20 rounds were at a COAL of 1.121", another 20 were at 1.128, and the last 20 (or first 20, I should say) were at 1.142".

I immediately noticed better accuracy at 1.142". I proceeded to shoot all six groups and there were no signs of pressure. I used Federal small pistol primers and primed them all on my Lyman T Mag II Turret Press. I had 0 malfunctions of any kind. I think the issue I was having was seating the primes too deep, combined with limp wristing since I'm shooting off a caldwell bag. Priming on the press and sort of locking my elbows to have a firmer grip on the pistol, definitely helped me out.

Considering both pistols, I found the best accuracy at 1.128" and will mass load this in the future. I couldn't tell a difference in the recoil between the three loads.

To answer one of the questions, on the rounds that wouldn't detonate, the striker would leave a light mark on the primer but not the nice rectangle we're used to seeing - more evidence that the primers were seated too deep on my Lyman handpriming tool. That think can put out some torque with a little squeeze...Thanks for mentioning that my firing pin spring may be tired. If I end up having to replace it, I'll be sure to replace my recoil spring as well.

I appreciate all the replies. There are many lessons learned. I believe the failures to eject were from light chamber pressure and limp-wristing. I believe that failures to fire were primers seated too deep.

 

[rbernie]

I believe that failures to fire were primers seated too deep

It's usually the other way around; the primers aren't seated deeply enough so the striker hit spends some of its energy driving the primer deeper into the pocket. These rounds will often fire on a second strike.

 

[mboylan]

9 mm Glocks do not work well with heavy bullets at lower velocities. The recoil spring is too stiff. I would suggest a 14 pound spring on a stainless steel guide rod.

 

[gamestalker]

I'm not a big Glock fan, but I do own an old G17. I run 147 gr. jacketed and Gold Dots through it, current;y I'm using upper end Longshot data. But, I've had this G17 since the late 1980's, and it has run just fine with SR 4756, Blue Dot, HS6, and a few others, all have worked fine.

The problem your having is very likely caused by low pressure loads. Bump the charge up until it will cycle 100% reliably.

GS

 

[RussellC]

I'm not a big Glock fan, but I do own an old G17. I run 147 gr. jacketed and Gold Dots through it, current;y I'm using upper end Longshot data. But, I've had this G17 since the late 1980's, and it has run just fine with SR 4756, Blue Dot, HS6, and a few others, all have worked fine.

The problem your having is very likely caused by low pressure loads. Bump the charge up until it will cycle 100% reliably.

GS

bingo. You do not have a Glock malfunction, you have a load misinformation malfunction, which has nothing at to do with the glock.

As for the XTP, they are a little longer than many typical HP bullets. I just take the known good load bullet length and compare to the unknown bullet length. Then adjust the OAL accordingly.

Russellc

 

[Sunray]

Plated bullets use cast bullet data, not jacketed of any kind.

 

[Mad Chemist]

Sunray that's not entirely correct.

Plated bullets use a range between cast and jacketed. Your start load is at the top end of cast data and your max is the mid range of the jacketed data. Check the Western Powders reloading manual for published confirmation of this. They list data for Berry's plated bullets and you'll notice that it follows this pattern. Using starting cast data for a plated bullet will almost always be too light to function reliably in most semi autos.

Some plated bullets are more robust like Raineer and Gold Dot these are loaded about 10% lighter than jacketed data. This is confirmed by the Raineer bullet data in the Vihtaviuori #9 online manual.

Here's the link for Western:
http://www.accuratepowder.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/WP_LoadSpec_1-23-14.pdf

Here's the URL for Viht data. There also have a pdf.
http://www.lapua.com/en/products/reloading/vihtavuori-reloading-data/relodata/6

 

[Mad Chemist]

bingo. You do not have a Glock malfunction, you have a load misinformation malfunction, which has nothing at to do with the glock.

As for the XTP, they are a little longer than many typical HP bullets. I just take the known good load bullet length and compare to the unknown bullet length. Then adjust the OAL accordingly.

Russellc

The XTPs may be a little longer, but the ogive is a lot "pointier". The profile matters just as much as the bullet OAL.

 

[Mad Chemist]

Grunt81,

If you continue to have problems with your glock check the impact force of the striker.

1.Make sure you have an empty pistol. DOUBLE CHECK, THEN CHECK AGAIN.
2.Cycle the slide to pre-cock the striker.
3.Put a #2 pencil in the barrel.
4.Point the pistol up at at least 45 deg and press the trigger.

The pencil should launch vigorously from the impact of the striker. My extremely well used gen 2 G19 will launch the pencil 6-8 ft when aimed in a parabolic trajectory.

If the pencil fails to launch from the barrel you have one of two possible problems.
Option A. One of the striker assembly components needs to be replaced. (not very likely unless this is a competition gun)
Option B. The striker channel is full of crud including: excess oil, dirt, and brass shavings. (This is fairly common since most owners will overlube the pistol and never detail strip it.)

Option B is much more lilely. This is usually caused by over-lubricating the pistol. It's easy to fix. You simply detail strip the slide and clean out the crud. DONT USE OIL TO CLEAN IT. Use simple green or another light detergent and a Qtip. Thoroughly dry before reassembly. The striker channel is designed to run dry and does not require any lube whatsoever. If you do not know how to detail strip the slide check youtube. There are a lot of good videos that can walk you through it.

Feel free to PM me if you have any questions.

 

[RussellC]

Whoops, I forgot to check box for quote @ Madchemist #13 Not when you do it the way I do it, measuring everything with a micrometer. I focus on how much space is left in the case, of a known safe round (assuming the same weight bullet.) As long as that is the same, it matters not to me how long or short the total OAL is..within reason of course. Everything can then be worked up from there. That way ogive and its "pointyness" doesnt matter as far as a safe round is concerned, pressure wise.

The "pointyness" would only be a problem if you had been loading lets say, a bullet that is RN and without changing anything you began using XTP. If concentrating on space left in the case and proper adjustment is made to maintain it, it matters not unless increased length was a problem, which it will not be with a Glock until you get to crazy lengths.

Also, I shoot a Glock or S&W both will plunk test 1.160 with no problem. Other guns may be different. In fact I have made a ridiculously long dummy round with the bullet barely in it that would Pass Plunk test in the Glock. Not to say they would even fit in the mag!

Russellc

 

[Grunt81]

Grunt81,

If you continue to have problems with your glock check the impact force of the striker.

1.Make sure you have an empty pistol. DOUBLE CHECK, THEN CHECK AGAIN.
2.Cycle the slide to pre-cock the striker.
3.Put a #2 pencil in the barrel.
4.Point the pistol up at at least 45 deg and press the trigger.

The pencil should launch vigorously from the impact of the striker. My extremely well used gen 2 G19 will launch the pencil 6-8 ft when aimed in a parabolic trajectory.

If the pencil fails to launch from the barrel you have one of two possible problems.
Option A. One of the striker assembly components needs to be replaced. (not very likely unless this is a competition gun)
Option B. The striker channel is full of crud including: excess oil, dirt, and brass shavings. (This is fairly common since most owners will overlube the pistol and never detail strip it.)

Option B is much more lilely. This is usually caused by over-lubricating the pistol. It's easy to fix. You simply detail strip the slide and clean out the crud. DONT USE OIL TO CLEAN IT. Use simple green or another light detergent and a Qtip. Thoroughly dry before reassembly. The striker channel is designed to run dry and does not require any lube whatsoever. If you do not know how to detail strip the slide check youtube. There are a lot of good videos that can walk you through it.

Feel free to PM me if you have any questions.

Thank you for that tip. I've never heard of doing that before.

I put about a 3/4 long #2 pencil in the barrel, after triple checking the chamber was clear and magazine well was empty. Placed the butt of the pistol grip on the carpet and aimed up at about 45 degrees. From where the tip of the barrel was to where the tip of the pencil landed was exactly 30" or 2.5 feet.

My striker is definitely impacting with less force than your G19. I should mention that I've replaced the trigger bar to bring the trigger pull down to 3.5lbs. I've also performed the $0.25 polish job about four times. I did it before that range trip and I definitely took a whole lot of brass shavings.

I think I was having a low charge issue combined with limp-wristing since I was shooting off a sand bag for groups. That should explain my failures to eject. I do think my failures to fire sure was a primer issue. I primed Federal small pistol primers all on my Lyman T Mag 2 Turret Press and I had zero failures to fire.

As far as load data, a chronograph would be the only way to stop the guesswork. Other people that have chronographed 147 grain Xtreme bullet with CFE Pistol powder have shown that it travels slower than the Hornady XTP at the same charge. I'll post some links.

 

[Grunt81]

https://www.google.com/search?q=9mm...rums%2Findex.php%3Fshowtopic%3D193837;934;105

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=914922

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=946659

 

[RussellC]

One other thing unrelated, replacing the trigger bar alone will not lower your trigger pull to 3.5 unless you change springs as well. I find the 3.5 trigger bar shaves off about 3/4s of a pound.

The striker channel is always a good thing to check. I cleaned mine out after 1500 rounds and a small pile of tiny metal chips (brass I think) came out. Be careful with the tiny spring cups, easy to lose. After cleaning, the striker was a lot more free as well. Never heard of launching the pencil, I just look at the primer strike on the fired brass.

Russellc

 

[RussellC]

CFE Pistol is a new powder and you won't find load data in older manuals. As you posted, you will find load data on Hodgdon's website - http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/

Since the published load data used JHP with different bullet nose shape/length than X-Treme plated RN bullet you are using, you will need to determine the working OAL that will work with your barrel and powder charge that will reliably cycle the slide and extract/eject the spent cases.

Using the OAL/COL listed in published load data won't ensure it will work optimally with your pistol/barrel as it simply indicates the cartridge length used for measuring average maximum chamber pressures for the particular bullet.

Since pistol/barrel construction and dimensions can vary from brand/model and bullet nose shape (ogive)/bullet length vary from different manufacturers to affect reliability of feeding/chambering and bullet seating depth (which changes chamber pressures), reloaders need to determine the working OAL for each pistol/barrel and bullet used prior to powder work up.

1. First, maximum OAL is determined using the barrel drop test outlined in this thread - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=506678

2. Many 9mm factory barrels can accommodate RN bullets to SAAMI max OAL of 1.169" but this does not mean that max OAL of 1.169" will reliably feed and chamber finished rounds from the magazine. We use function check test to determine the working OAL by locking the slide back and feeding a dummy round (no powder, no primer) from the magazine by releasing the slide without riding it. OAL is incrementally decreased until the dummy round reliably feeds/chambers from the magazine and the working OAL can vary from 1.169" down to 1.050" for RN bullets depending on the pistol/barrel. Chances are, your Glock/barrel may support longer working OAL to 1.160" (depending on the bullet) and this means bullet base will be seated not as deep as the HP bullet used for load data and you'll need to use higher powder charges than what is published to reliably cycle the slide.

3. Once you determine the working OAL, then you can proceed to powder work up by referencing available load data. Increasing the powder charge from published start charge, initially identify the powder charge that will reliably cycle the slide and extract/eject the rounds. Then monitor the accuracy trends as you work up towards max charge.


But since Hodgdon only published load data for JHP and not plated RN, you'll need to carefully increase the powder charge (I would use .1 gr increments) until your slide reliably cycles to extract/eject spent cases and feed/chamber the rounds from the magazine. If the 1.160" reliably feed/chamber rounds from the magazine, I would stick to using 1.160" OAL and test 4.0 gr. If you still have slide cycling issues, I would test 4.1 gr and 4.2 gr.


No. Glock barrels have longer leade and very smooth start of rifling and decreasing the OAL will increase high pressure gas leakage before the bullet's bearing surface engages the rifling to build chamber pressure. To increase chamber pressure when you are using insufficient powder charge to reliably cycle the slide, you need to increase the powder charge. To minimize high pressure gas leakage, you want to keep OAL longer so the bearing surface of the bullet is closer to the start of rifling.

With that said, to add to the confusion, shorter OAL will help with initial chamber pressure build up. Since I load for multiple pistols/barrels, I use 1.135" OAL with 115/124/125 gr RN bullets and up to 1.145" with 147 gr RN bullets for reliable feeding/chambering. You could try 3.9/4.0 gr at 1.145" OAL to see if that will improve your reliability of slide cycling/extraction/ejection or keep the longer 1.160" and increase powder charge to 4.0/4.1/4.2 gr. In the end, accuracy may be the determining factor and I would use whichever OAL/powder charge that produces greater accuracy.


Primer not firing could be from primer not seated deep enough to set the tip of the anvil against the priming compound. If the primer fires on second strike, make sure you are seating the primers deep enough by loading the finished rounds in a bullet tray and running your finger tips over the primers. The primers should feel slightly below flush (or at least flush). If you feel any high primers, seat these primers deeper.

If the primer does not fire on subsequent strikes and leaves shallow indentations on the primer cup, you may need to inspect the striker and the striker channel/tube and clean the fouling build up and/or replace the striker.

+1

Russellc