Glocks with a safety?

[bad_dad_brad]

Glock's one external trigger safety, and two internal safeties, in my opinion, make the Glock one of the safest pistols there are.

Only one thing to remember. If you pull the trigger, it will shoot. What makes that different than a DA revolver? Except that external trigger safety. Read on.

http://www.glock.com/_safe_action_.htm

The standard 5 lb. trigger that comes with most Glocks takes quite a bit of concentrated effort to break. The 8 lb. New York trigger, if you have a paranoia about the standard trigger, takes even more effort.

A Glock's trigger safety, then it's deliberate take up, and hard break, makes it difficult to have an AD, but of course there have been some, as with any firearm. Nothing is perfect.

The only time I came close to an AD was with a Kahr MK9. That smooth trigger almost made me a eunuch once as I stuffed the little sucker in my waistband, just brushing my shirt. That is the difference I think, that little piece of Glock external trigger safety plastic. It works, unless you deliberatly pull it - brushing against it does not have an affect.

Regardless, any pistol or revolver should always be carried, especially pocket carry, in a holster of some kind.

 

[Zundfolge]

If you really want a Glock with a manual safety, get a Steyr.


But I'll be honest, the only time I used the manual safety on my M40 when I carried it was when it was carried in a bellyband.

 

[355sigfan]

The 26 is too big to be placed in a pocket at least in my pockets. The gun is perfectly safe if you carry it in a holster as you should all guns even pocket guns. Just keep your finger off the trigger until your ready to shoot.
Pat

 

[jc2]

What makes that different than a DA revolver? Except that external trigger safety.

Let's see: How about additional five or six pounds (or more) of trigger pull? How about a much, much longer trigger pull? How about resistance over the length of the trigger pull instead of just at the breaking point? How about visual "feedback"--you can see the hammer move back and the cylinder rotate. How about tactile "feedback"--you feel the hammer moving or the cylinder rotating? How about aural "feedback"--you can hear the action "clicking?"

Which do you think is the easier to master and (maintain skill with)--the Glock trigger or the DA revolver trigger? Which do you think you can have novice or inexperienced shooter shooting better (faster and more accurately) quicker--the Glock or the DA revolver. There is a huge difference (far more than an external trigger safety) between a Glock and a DA revolver trigger. It's absolutely amazing--when it comes to shootability, the Glock trigger pull is far superior to a DA revolver pull, but when it comes to safety, why, there's no difference at all.

 

[BluesBear]

Very well put jc2

 

[c_yeager]

How can anything be called a DAO pistol if you dont have the ability to do a second strike? Anything that has to be "cocked" in order to fire is a single action in my book. The manual of arms is identical to any SA pistol, so why wouldnt it be considered as such?

 

[jc2]

How can anything be called a DAO pistol if you dont have the ability to do a second strike?

Because the only way to "cock" a Glock is my pulling the trigger. Double action refers to the two actions the trigger performs: one compressing the stiker (or main) spring and two releasing the striker (or main) spring to ignite the primer: two actions--double action. Double action does not necessarily entail a second strike capability. Though a second strike capability is usually found in double action revolvers, it is becomming less and less common in double action only autoloaders.

Anything that has to be "cocked" in order to fire is a single action in my book.

All handguns have to be cocked in order to fire (at least on this planet). The question is how they're cocked. Single actions are cocked manually by pulling the hammer back and/or racking the slide. When you pull the trigger, the tension the striker (or main) spring is released causing the weapon to discharge. Double actions are cocked by pulling the trigger. In the case of DAOs, the only way to cock them is to pull the trigger--that is how a Glock operates.

The manual of arms is identical to any SA pistol, so why wouldnt it be considered as such?

Not hardly! The manual arms for most single actions include applying a manual safety (usually thumb operated) and/or decocking. There is no manual safety on the Glock to apply, and it cannot be decocked because it is not cocked.

 

[BluesBear]

The Glock, the S&W Sigma and all similar pistols are NEITHER Single-Action or Double Action Only.

A double action mechanism does both cocking and firing.

A safe-action pistol is "pre-cocked". The cycling of the slide partially cocks the striker, while pulling the trigger completes the cocking and then fires.
This is the reason that a safe-action pistol has a lighter trigger pull than a DAO.

Perhaps you'd prefer calling it a 1½ action pistol?

 

[cornbread2]

JC

I useally do not agree with some of your opinions of the Glock but you do understand their trigger group.

You have my respect for that.

 

[jc2]

A safe-action pistol is "pre-cocked". The cycling of the slide partially cocks the striker, while pulling the trigger completes the cocking and then fires.

Not exactly. They are not "pre-cocked." The cycling of the slides "sets" striker which is a long, long way from "pre-cocked," and no where near enough energy is stored at that point to ignite primer, and even though the Glock "Instructions for Use" describe it as "half-cock," it is still a long way from being even "half-cocked." The "Instructions for Use" also describe it as being "under partial tension" which is a far more accurate and technically correct description.

There is a good reason cycling action "sets" the striker, and it goes back to how the Glock works. The striker spring actually pushing the striker out of the breech face (in a hammer fired weapon, the firing pin spring does the opposite holding the firing back from the breech face). If the striker did not "set," the design of the pistol would leave the striker protruding from the breech face leading to an open bolt full auto weapon.

This is the reason that a safe-action pistol has a lighter trigger pull than a DAO.

No, the Glock is DAO--pulling the trigger compresses the striker spring and releases the striker to ignite the primer. The primary reason striker fired pistols have a lighter trigger pull is not because the striker is set (the degree of compression of the striker spring when the striker is negligible), but because it is fire easier to compress a striker spring than a main spring--the heavier main spring requires far more effort than the lighter striker spring. In fact, most of the resistance (trigger pull) you feel with a Glock does not come from the striker spring but the geometry of the connector and the trigger spring. That is why it is no easy to adjust the Glock's trigger pull while the only way to reduce a trigger pull on a hammer fired weapon is through judicious polishing and a lighter main spring. Basically, the difference between the trigger pull in the striker fired Glock and a hammer-fired action is not because the striker is set, but because you are compressing a much lighter striker spring not a mainspring--the double action function of the trigger remains constant, but the springs that are being compressed have changed.

 

[9x19]

cornbread,

It took several posters, over several years, and two different forums, but jc did finally get the mechanics mostly correct.

He does still have problems with semantics, it seems, and still imposes his own limits on "action" definitions, evidenced by his preference for incorrectly classifying the Glock as DAO, while the manufacturer correctly distinguishes it from those by calling it something different: "Safe Action".

Perhaps in another few years...

BTW, the Glock's slide moving rearward is what resets the action, as it pushes the connector in to the left, allowing the trigger bar to rise, so that when the slide returns to battery, the stiker tab can catch the trigger bar cross-piece and push the trigger forward AGAINST the tension of the trigger spring. The striker spring is quite strong in the Glock, but its effect on the trigger pull is lessened by the fact that the trigger spring is exerting pressure rearward on the trigger. A heavier trigger spring means a lighter pull, a lighter trigger spring, a heavier pull. The connector's angle where it meets the trigger bar and forces it downward off the striker tab also affects trigger pull weight as well as "let off" feel.

Y'all have fun out there.

 

[cornbread2]

Lets look at three modern striker fired auto pistols.

The XD Springfield. It is a SINGLE ACTION striker fired pistol. With a round in the chamber the striker is COMPLETLY cocked to the rear and held to the rear by the sear. The trigger pull releases the striker allowing it to fall firing the weapon.

The Steyr M series. It is a SINGLE ACTION striker fired pistol. With a round in the chamber the striker is about 98% cocked to the rear. As the sear releases the striker it moves the striker the other 2% or so to the rear much like the trigger pull on a standard AR and releases it firing the weapon.

The Glock is a DOUBLE ACTION. As JC stated the trigger pull does a double duty. It pulls the striker to the rear and then realeses it firing the weapon.

What is so hard to understand about these simple facts.

Calling the Glock a single action because the striker must be resent by hand when the pistol is unloaded is like saying a car does not have power steering because it does not work correctly if the engine is off.

 

[9x19]

cornbread,

Since you seem to have the same limited set of pigeon holes as jc, I'm sure y'all will get along nicely.

Good night.

 

[355sigfan]

As a Glock Armorer I will say internally the Glock is a cross between a single and a double action. Taking the internals out of it the trigger feels far more like a single action than a double action.
Pat

 

[cornbread2]

No we will not get along very well. The fact that the Glock is a DAO is about the only thing JC and I agree on.

 

[BluesBear]

It would appear that for some, no explanation is required... for others, no explanation will do.

 

[sgt127]

Cominolli Safety

To answer the original question, I have one installed on my G-23. I like it alot. Being an old 1911 shooter, it feels completely natural and just as fast as a Glock without the manual safety. I am trying to get our dept to approve it as an authorized modification to the issue G-35. It can be loaded and cleared with the safety on. I like the idea of an exposed belt gun having a manual safety if somebody gets it away from you.

I think the Glock as originally designed is a superb killing machine. In a military setting, its ok, even encouraged to kill the enemy. Police and civilians rarely have to shoot people but point their guns at alot more.

I would guess the way the lawyers are circling the gun industry, if Glock offered a manual safety on new guns, the argument would be that all previous Glocks were dangerous because they did not have a safety. Leading to many lawsuits, or Glock would have to offer a retrofit to all exsisting guns.

 

[jc2]

9x19 -

It took several posters, over several years, and two different forums, but jc did finally get the mechanics mostly correct.

I've had the mechanics correct from day one. You've yet to get the teminlogy correct!

 

[coverdog]

There are two types of gun people: those who have had an accidental discharge, and those who have not had one YET.

And where did this statistic come from? Use your head and be safe at all times and it not likely to happen.

 

[cornbread2]

sgt127

You are correct about the need for a manaul safety on an open carry gun. It HAS saved the lives of a few cops when the bad guys took their pistols.

If I was a uniformed cop that had to carry open I would carry a H&K USP or a good 1911 or possibly a Glock with a manaul safety.

One that has trained enough with a 1911 is not any more likely to forget to wipe the safety off under stress than he is to forget to pull the trigger.

 

[355sigfan]

There are two types of gun people: those who have had an accidental discharge, and those who have not had one YET.
END

Well first off there are damn few truly accidental discharges. That would mean something other than yourself caused the gun to fire. There are negligent discharges and yes some people slip and dry fire with loaded guns and that kind of thing. But there is no excuse for firing with a loaded gun when you know its loaded when you did not intend to. Keep your finger off the trigger.
Pat

 

[cornbread2]

There are few ADs because most modern carry guns are very safe. The vast majority of pistols that intelligent thinking people carry are 100% drop safe. They can not fire without a trigger pull.

The exceptions to this rule are some junk guns such as the Jennings, Davis type crap some older style revolvers and the Steyr M series pistols.

It is up to the person carring the gun to be able to know and completly understand it's trigger group and safety systen before they carry it in public.

If one does not have such an ability they do not have any business carring ANY firearm.

 

[9x19]

jc2,

Revisionist history?

How droll...