GLTB Shooters! Time to plan for PRIDE

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Pretty funny.
I used to live in Hingham, Massachusetts, during the 4th of July parade we had re-enactments of the Civil War with black powder rifles fired every one hundred yards, WWI with .303 Enfields fired every one hundred yards and WWII (although the Garands were not fired).

Then they rolled a real-live Sherman tank down the street. I told my kids that American was the only country in the world where the sight of a military tank on the main street was a sign of freedom.

And they won't let you wear water pistols?!:scrutiny:
 
Hey JJ

Hello there, it's been a while since I've posted anything Portland Pink Pistols related. Heh. You might actually recognize my name.

Anyway, I might point out that a CHL exempts you from the open carry ban that Portland has set up per ORS 166.173.

Btw, I'm working on a parallel situation with getting Portland Police Bureau's officers to recognize open carry as completely legal with a CHL. Remember, it states "Licensed to carry a concealed handgun". It does not say "Licensed to carry a concealed handgun and is carrying such handgun concealed". The status as a CHL holder is what exempts you from the loaded firearm carry ban that Portland, Beaverton, and Salem has put up per ORS 166.173, not your method of carry.

You can contact me off list for more details.

-Lonnie
 
Ok, if open carry is legal, but you're not sure if you'll get hassled for it, you might try carrying concealed, but do so in a way that makes it obvious. Maybe tight T-shirts, so you print. Technically it's still concealed.

Just a thought.
 
Well…we heard from the Portland Police Bureau (PPB). It is very important to note that the PPB is in chaos right now, and a precinct captain was bumped over the assistant chief into the big chair earlier this week. I have been working with one of those assistant chiefs.

JJ: Thanks for your pateince with respect to my response to your issue. I have
reviewed the information and believe that you should take this issue up with the
event organizers at this point, not the police. Obviously, the display or carry of
firearms at such an event does not appear to be in the best of public interests or
safety. I wish you the best with your endeavors.

Thank you,

###name redacted###
Click to expand...

It is important to note that we never stated our intention *to* carry, merely that it was our *desire* to carry. Fine, but important distinction.

The assistant then alerted the head of PrideNW. Aaaaaah, drama!

Essentially, we are faced with 2 positions:

1. carry, and be denied entry. The may or may not tie into the work Lonnie is doing, too soon to tell.
2. do not carry, and bring the good word regarding the constitution to the GLTB community.

Our group has reached a general (and I do mean general—by no means unanimous) consensus that it is more important to be there than to NOT be there. Principles are fine and dandy, but none of us currently has the resources to engage in a nice, long battle with the city over this. Further, we believe that it will be easier to accept us carrying after we have done an event or two, and have an established relationship with the PrideNW folks.

I wonder if it would be a good idea to invite some of these folks shooting? All in all, they are hardly adversarial, merely aggressively non-confrontational.
 
...

1. carry, and be denied entry. The may or may not tie into the work Lonnie is doing, too soon to tell.
Click to expand...

Actually, it's technically not. There are three legal questions here. One is whether or not you are considered a "civic organization". That is something to be decided by the trier of fact after an arrest. Granted, the state has the burden of proof to prove that you were not part of a civic organization. The easiest path is just getting a CHL to be able to open carry in Portland.

The second question is what Portland Police will do to open carriers with CHL's. There has been PLENTY of anecdotal situations of open carriers in Portland harassed, having their CHL threatened to be revoked over open carry, however no one can seem to document it directly, they never bothered filing a complaint, or just let it slide. I am attempting contact with their training division to see if I can reach someone in research and development, the folks responsible for making new rules in regards to law enforcement officer's actions towards citizens, to perhaps put in a "no threatening, no editorializing" rule.

On top of having to deal with City of Portland, we also have to deal with the Portland Business Improvement District folks, specifically, the Clean and Safe people. They are rather infamous among alternative circles for handing out tickets excluding you from the downtown area for the flimsiest reasons. BID's are districts, covered by the preemption statute.

The third question is what rights are given to NW Pride. There was a similar case with the New Years Festival in Portland. Oregon Firearms Education Foundation filed suit, and they lost in the Court of Appeals. I do not know if they appealed to the State Supreme Court or not.

If it's just that Portland gives permits for Pride, that's one thing. It being a city institution is a different story, and subject to the issues brought up in the Starrett v. City of Portland case.
 
Greeting Everyone.

Hello Lonnie, you’re right. It has been a while. I’ve only found THR recently and it looks like you’ve been very busy here and elsewhere. I hope you are well.

I’ve closely read both the ORS166 and the corresponding Portland City ordinances. They read very similar and the letter of the law states an exemption for open carry to CHL license holders. As you commented before, oh so long ago over lunch, the sticking point seems to be the “public nuisance and civil disturbance” side of the laws.

Some people will panic at the sight of a weapon and call the police in a state of hysteria; the police will arrive and “arrest” the individual, taking the cause of the panic with them when they leave the arrest scene. Usually the charges are dropped but court costs and lose or suspension of the CHL is a possibility. This isn’t unique to Portland; several similar cases from around the country have made the news. I would also like to see documentation from the City of Portland so if you uncover any let me know.

Hi Al, how are you? :) I will have to double check but IIRC “printing” is a big no-no and in some jurisdictions might get one arrested. An incident from my last place of employment is an example. A customer laid his fanny pack on the parts counter while I accepted payment. In error he handed me his CHL instead of DL, at one point the pack flopped open exposing a pistol and a co-worker turned white. He started taking the man’s license plate number with the intention of calling the police. I bluntly told him to back off and not be a sheeple; his attitude surprised me for a gun owner.

Interestingly, JJ forwarded to me an email exchange from another 2A activist. He suggested that any display of toy weapons might give the impression our group is a prank and some kind of joke. Not the response we want. He also suggested that display of weapons would likely cause panic among the attendees and bring us back to the public nuisance discussion. He thought a simple RKBA message would be the best approach, educate and inform. I plan to lobby the group for just that.

Mike
Portland, OR.
President Portland Pink Pistols



:evil:
 
Mike,

I'm less concerned about "disturbing the peace" and "incitement of public panic" and more worried about police attitude, intimidation, and threatening.

I will have to double check but IIRC “printing” is a big no-no and in some jurisdictions might get one arrested.
Click to expand...

Florida, Texas, Oklahoma, New York, South Carolina, and Arkansas flat out ban open carry, and this is in effect even with a CHL from those states. Pretty rare, no?
 
Really? It seems to me that the Police, as an abstract, are becoming more intimidating and threatening, with more attitude, than at any point in the history of this country. It only takes a minor event to “disturb the peace” or “incite public panic” and cause the call up of a swat team. I should think that any reasonable man would be concerned with maintaining calm in a public venue.

As population densities rise, the open carry of arms will definitely cause people to become alarmed. The majority of people today, under the age of forty, have been taught that there is no right to bear arms and that only criminals have guns. Therefore, the sight of a weapon of any kind is an automatic red flag for anyone with a cell phone.

Of the six states you mention, Florida and New York don’t surprise me in the least about an open carry ban. The other four, as are Oregon and Washington, are in a state of transition. The metro areas are now large enough to dictate the law to the rural portion of the state. If Burdick and Mannix get their way, guns will be banned across Oregon; I’m quite sure Texas, Oklahoma, South Carolina, and Arkansas have legislators working in the same direction.

I agree that change needs to be made to turn back the tide of prejudice against gun owners and that does seem to be happening across the states. The success of the concealed carry movement is evidence of that but I think the alarm caused by the open carry of a firearm in metro areas will escalate for the foreseeable future.

I leave you for the night with two final thoughts for consideration. There are going to be an estimated 100K people over two days to attend the Pride festival and parade, a twelve hour event. I understand the police foot patrols will be unarmed within the venue. Obviously retention is an issue and PPB is aware of that. More than eight thousand people will walk past a given point per hour, which is a huge theft potential. Additionally, a simple misunderstanding could cause a panic and people are still a herd animal; trampling is a danger with the crowd density expected

Mike
Portland, OR.
President Portland Pink Pistols



:evil:
 
Of the six states you mention, Florida and New York don’t surprise me in the least about an open carry ban. The other four, as are Oregon and Washington, are in a state of transition. The metro areas are now large enough to dictate the law to the rural portion of the state. If Burdick and Mannix get their way, guns will be banned across Oregon; I’m quite sure Texas, Oklahoma, South Carolina, and Arkansas have legislators working in the same direction.
Click to expand...

That's a matter of opinion, at least as far as that is concerned. Texas, Oklahoma, South Carolina, and Arkansas are considered quite pro-gun in their own right. The reasoning for banning concealed carry is rather complicated. They will not flip anti-gun anytime in the near future.

As for Oregon and Washington, the answer on that I believe is no. In Washington, we had two years of more gun control passing. We even got a "case and carry". However, that law was repealed 3 years later by the Legislature after it's ineffectiveness was shown (the repeal bill sponsored also by Democratic State Senator James Hargrove in 1997).

The rural Democrats down in Oregon pretty much was able to get the party platform changed in regards to the right to keep and bear arms. So I don't see anything passing in the future down there, either.

Oregon and Washington have something that California does not: An RKBA provision.
 
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update...we are in

Ok...so we are now squared away with the Pride folks. They are eagerly
awaiting our participation.

Details coming, but FIRST! A recap of the chronology of events:

We ask the city of Portland how to become a “civil organization” and how
to gets a “Chief's Exemption”
PPB say they are on vacation.
PPB say they are "investigating"
PPB then refers us to Pride, and give us the big brushoff.

Now the parts that we DIDN’T know:

During the “investigating” phase, they approached PrideNW and invited them
to meet with the city attorney, who: Told PrideNW that it was “in their
best interests” to post the event as gun free, erect metal detectors and
wand everyone coming in.

A couple of days ago, I was asked to call PrideNW's President. We played
Telephone Tag for a few days, but managed to connect yesterday. She is a
Very, very nice President. If only all Presidents were as nice and as
practical.

Her concern *is* with carrying, but from a very different perspective than
we are used to: cost and PR. Of course the City is recommending wanding
and so on, but she feels that this is both impractical (50k people per day is
a HUGE number of folks), and un-necessary. She is NOT worried that we will go off shooting someone. She *is* worried that OTHER
folks will freak out and demand that they incur this extra cost, or
withdraw their support (think the corporate sponsors that pay the lions' share of the way
for the parade and festival).

While she does indeed believe that we are legally capable of carrying, she
very politely requested that we NOT carry. Frankly, she wants to keep as
many corporate sponsors as possible, and not have to bow to pressure to
post the place *and* pay the expense of wanding/detecting everyone. She
also really, really wants us there. She believes that we have a valid
point in our message that the Consitution applies to EVERYONE regardless
of sexual orientation, and wants to see that message spread.

I agreed to pass on this recommendation to the group. Indeed I told her
that our recommendation would be that folks NOT carry, even concealed.
IMPORTANT CAVEAT: I also pointed out that of course, CHL's are allowed, as
they always have been, but that if we didn't know about it, neither would
they. Keep it well hidden, and no one will be the wiser. We are here to spread the gospel of John Browning, not antagonize
the event organizers or the city.

I also pointed out that we were still going to pursue the issue with the
City (next stop: city attorney), but that we weren't in a rush to solve
this tomorrow, nor in time for this Pride, but would like to revisit at a
future date. She agreed that this is an issue to address in the future,
and looks forward to discussing this with us.

She was also rather mindful of the blissninny nature of a lot of her
constituency, and asks us to just keep in mind that the goal of folks in
showing up to Pride is to show unity, and respect for our various diverse natures.
That includes our showing respect to sheeples who think that guns are
inherently evil. She is quite sure that this will be an attention-getter
for us, and increase our exposure among OUR consituency, but that we will
also pick up a few detractors along the way. Be prepared.

So again, our enemy turns out to be the City, NOT PrideNW. How ironic that
it turns out we have a *friend* in PrideNW, but that the city was boppin'
us on the head when our back was turned.
 
Lonnie wrote:
The rural Democrats down in Oregon pretty much was able to get the party platform changed in regards to the right to keep and bear arms. So I don't see anything passing in the future down there, either.
Click to expand...

And Burdick is busy ruining her legislative career by running (poorly) for city coucil in Portland.

Tho there is a LOT of noise on this issue on the side of the Dems, I have found the loudest to be coming from the Brady folks just trying to DROWN out other conversations that might speak against their line of thinkings.

The Dems are getting it. Slowly but surely.
 
when is the parade anyway?

Does PP march in the SF parade?

Would the pdx city folks stop gay vets from marching with rifles?

I've seen vets in parades and rotc members with rifles?

maybe it's time for a gay rotc?:evil:

isn't that the navy?? ...kidding, I'm kidding!:neener:

Anyway good luck and good work!
I hope you can open carry next year...

wanding the entire crowd? is pdx city council insane?
 
answers to various questions...

Btw, JJ, do we know if this was a written communication from the City Attorney's Office, or oral? Written would be better.
Click to expand...

I believe that this was oral, not written, however, this did not come directly to me, or to PinkPistols, but rather PrideNW.


when is the parade anyway?
Click to expand...

June 18, Father’s day.

Does PP march in the SF parade?
Click to expand...

Dunno. Never been to anything in SF. I was there once on business, but couldn’t find parking.

Would the pdx city folks stop gay vets from marching with rifles?
Click to expand...

Probably not. I know some of the gay vets, and my experience is that they aren’t active shooters. Been there, done that is their thinking. Of course, YMMV.

I've seen vets in parades and rotc members with rifles?
Click to expand...

Not usually real rifles, from what I have seen…they tend to be less-costing non-functioning parade rifles like these:

http://www.qmuniforms.com/moreInfoGroup.asp?T1=Q85+01&Cat=

Of course, that is only what I have *seen*…YMMV again.

maybe it's time for a gay rotc?
Click to expand...

Ummm…that’s not allowed, remember? We aren’t citizens (that pesky 14th amendment doesn’t apply to us). Don’t ask, don’t tell usually keeps us out of ROTC.

I hope you can open carry next year...
Click to expand...

I am torn. I would love to, but frankly, I am personally worried about inflaming folks, and making them rather upset. Portland is a very liberal city. Further, I would worry about retention inside the festival grounds themselves.

wanding the entire crowd? is pdx city council insane?
Click to expand...

Yes, and yes, but not necessarily on THIS issue. We have some very “interesting” issues with our city council.

It is important to note that this wasn’t brought before the council, but rather is one attorney’s opinion. I don’t think it would hold up under well-funded challenge. Wanna challenge it for us? I am not well-funded.
 
I recently joined PDXPinkPistols but I am not gay and I am not involved in the 'glbt scene.' I will say that when I marched in the anti-war parade/protest I carried just like I always do: concealed.

If it were my decision I would either march:

1. with pink pistols t-shirts and firearms concealed
or
2. with people who are legally licensed to open carrying (because a CHL DOES guarantee you the right to open carry in Oregon).

However, I think you are on questionable moral ground having people open carry thier firearms in a crowded environment like that. I would be terrified of someone getting my gun. I don't own a level II retension holster or a lanyard. If I were to have all of these things, I would still march with my openly carried firearm unloaded and rely on my backup (as many police have in crowded parade environments).

Just my thoughs.

I WOULD NOT march with toy guns or anything of the sort. It dilutes the message.

I WOULD march with t-shirts and signs (and appropriatly concealed handguns).

Take Care,

Tabor

EDITed for grammar
 
scene report from Pride March, Portland, OR 6/18

GREAT Pride.

Saturday, several of us showed up at 9:30 to offload trucks and get things set up. We did this very quickly, and then helped others around us set up. We had several folks ask us who we were, and after being informed, shied away slightly, but no vocal “Ick” folks. Our neighbors were quite friendly and even joked with us. One gent forgot a knife to open a box, and joked that “amongs all you armed folks, one of you MUST have at least a knife.” We told him about our pledge to be unarmed then handed over the tool :)

I will let meinbruder fill you in his own words, as I was unable to be there during the afternoon:

Wow, what a day! I love to people watch and Pride definitely is a grand opportunity. I was most impressed with the range of ages, not just from the people at Pride but from the people that stopped and talked. Two ladies from Salem in their sixties were interested but thought the drive to the Western woods was a bit much. A young lady literally dragged to the booth by her father for information, she was no more than twenty.

We handed out a lot of flyers and talked to interested people, and encountered the curious but "cold" onlooker who responded "absolutely not" to an invitation of joining us for a shoot. I was warned to expect hostility from the crowd but none was evident.

I don’t think some of our folks were quite prepared for the chaos and crush of 50 thousand people into a space about the size of a football field that is the Pride booth grounds. After the parade, most folks wander down into this area, and mill around, watch shows on the stage, eat lunch, catch up with friends, visit vendors, community service groups, and generally have a good time.

Another excerpt from our own meinbruder’s mailing list followups (edited slightly for clarity):

Sunday, where do I begin? We left the pop-up, chairs, and tables in place overnight and it didn't take long to get back in business. R and A stayed behind while the rest of us went to march. The order of march changed without notice so getting everyone to the right corner was a challenge. Finally we were off and walking. A lot of very nice responses to our presence: spontaneous applause at several points and a number of people displayed thumbs up when we walked by. We had two announcements (from the grandstands along the route) and people cheered for both of them. JJ reported several people asking him to stop for photos of him in our shirt.

Highlights. One lady chased me down the block for information, it seems she has three kids to train and doesn't know where to start. A man shouted "Thank You", when I asked for what, he said, "just being here". (I heard that several times.) Another man ran out and put his arm around me and said, "Bless You, I've been looking for you for years, please tell me you're a gay gun club". He arrived at the booth about an hour later and hugged me after talking about the group. One of the things that got us noticed was Rob's Great Danes; Aslan and Blue marched with balloons and pins on the collar. They were the hit of the crowd and even Portland Police Bureau officers were asking about them.

From another of our number who marched:
People that didn't want to deal with us simply elaboratley ignored us, others were very cordial. At NO point did I feel threatened, in fact, felt so comfortable it was almost scary!

All in all, a fantastic weekend. No enemies made, many friends made, and fantastic exposure for our cause, and our group.
 
Wow thats great

personally I wouldn't feel comfortable without a weapon, but it sounds as if it
was a good experience for both sides of the gun/anti gun debate
 
RE--scene report from Pride March, Portland, OR 6/18

“personally I wouldn't feel comfortable without a weapon, but it sounds as if it
was a good experience for both sides of the gun/anti gun debate” –gunsmith

That is how I felt on Saturday morning. I’m not really a crowd person and tend to fold my elbow against holster when confronted by a mass of people. Once the booth was set up and I started talking to people, I went into a Zen state of relaxation. The same thing happens when shooting; jitters for the first twenty or thirty rounds and then calm.

Sunday was surreal! Once the booth was staffed I went to the assembly corner and waited for the parade to get started. A mile or so later we arrived back at the festival. People were literally shoulder-to-shoulder and stacked front to back. Retention in the situation would have been impossible. I can only imagine the stampede of people if anyone shouted “GUN!”. I’m so glad I left the hardware at home.

One thing surprised me, Portland Police Bureau had a large booth, with assistance from several agencies in the metro area. All of them visibly armed, even one deputy seen carrying around a puppy up for adoption from a local shelter. I rescued a dog from a hillbilly that day myself but really wondered if she could have responded to a pistol snatch while holding the puppy.

Interested parties were very accepting and the hoplophobes were cold; as I was on my feet for two days, the accepting folk were the ones I focused on. As we have two new members in the first two days, I consider the weekend a success. I’m hoping for a few more but will wait and see. I’m still waiting for the man who grabbed me on the parade route to apply; he will be the crown jewel of the event.

If anyone in the Portland, metro area would care to join us for a shoot; let me know. Sunday the 25th of June has just been penciled on the calendar, destination is the Timber Pit. [email protected]
Mike


:evil:
 
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