Goex 2F

[whughett]

Placed an order with Graf for 5 pounds of 3F, their brand and 1 pound of the 2F along with a box of 12 gage paper hulls.
I’ve been working on “square” loads, equal parts by volume of shot and powder, for an old double barrel shotgun. So far one ounce of #8 shot and an equal amount of 3F powder, by volume has looked good.
Wondering if the 2F, being more bulky, would allow the same shot column, and therefore a good crimp, but less energetic.
Any one here loading blackpowder shot shells.

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

I've been loading for a sxs Parker for a while now, been using an old Mec reloader that was given to me. I need to look at the charge bar and see how much powder it throws. I believe the bushings that came with it were all too small so it's being used without a bushing. Not sure how much powder is going into the shell but it has been very satisfactorily so far. I have used Pyrodex, 3 seven, and black with it and good results with all.

 

[whughett]

Did you say you don’t know the powder charge. ?
I too have a Mec650 from my trap shooting days, but haven’t been using the shot or powder bottles. It has an adjustable charge bar, I may experiment later with that. For now I’m just fiddling with various loads for fun. Too old to hunt, the club no longer has a trap range, just want to fire it once in a while.

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

I may have measured the charge a long time ago but have forgotten what it is, all I know is it works. I have an adjustable charge bar as well but it doesn't throw enough powder. I will measure the one on the loader today if I remember.

 

[J-Bar]

I doubt you will see much difference between 2F and 3F at that volume. By “looking good “ I assume you mean that the pattern is acceptable. Following the old rule of thumb, “less powder, more shot” to improve a pattern, you may find that 2F shoots a few pellets tighter. It would be an interesting experiment. Hope you post pictures.

PS:

My cowboy 12 gauge load is 2.5 cc of 2F (about 38 grains) under 1 ounce of #8 shot in a white plastic wad. Just eyeballing it, it’s close to a square load.

PPS:

Just got home and measured the amount of 2F Schuetzen that my 1 ounce shot dipper holds -- it's about 70 grains. If I shot that much powder under one ounce of shot I know I would get blown patterns, much too open to be usable in my cylinder bores. So my cowboy shells are no where near a square load.

So much for eyeballs.

 

[Patocazador]

My patterns are best in my 12 ga. SxS with 1F but I use 2F most of the time. I haven't used 3F in quite a while so I don't remember how it did.

Initially, my patterns had a hole in the center. I cured that by only using 1/3 of a cushioned wad. The full bulky wad was blasting through the shot leaving a central void.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

The title to your thread says Goex, but you say you bought some of Graf's brand powder. Graf's powder is the same as Schuetzen it is just packed in bottles that say Graf's on them. It is made in Germany by Wano. I use Schuetzen all the time in my CAS revolver, rifle, and shotgun loads. It uses a better grade of charcoal than Goex and burns a little bit cleaner.

My standard 12 gauge load is 4.3CCs, of Schuetzen FFg, a Circle Fly 1/8" over powder card, Circle Fly 1/2" cushion wad, 1 1/8 ounces of #8 shot, and a .030 Circle Fly over shot card. All stuffed into a Remington STS hull with a Winchester 209 shotgun primer. I use separate cards and wads because modern plastic shotgun wads tend to leave melted plastic behind in the bore, because Black Powder burns hotter than Smokeless. 4.3CC of Schuetzen is approximately 65 grains. This is actually less than a 'Square Load'. The volume of powder is less than the volume of shot. This works fine. When the volume of powder exceeds the volume of shot the powder will start blowing holes in the pattern.






I load my BP shotshells on my old MEC Jr. I do not use the powder bottle, I will not put Black Powder into a plastic bottle. Instead I dip my powder into my hulls using the largest dipper in the MEC dipper set.






I take each hull off the press to charge it with powder. I dip the powder from a ceramic cup, and level it off with a piece of cardstock. Then I use a funnel to charge the hull with powder.






I use Remington STS hulls because the plastic is very slippery and they eject best from my CAS shotgun. We are not allowed to use ejectors, only exactors. I sometimes use Winchester AA hulls, they load fine, but they are not quire as slippery as Remington STS hulls.



For what it's worth, a lot of guys in CAS use the old Winchester Red Wads because they allow for the greater volume of Black Powder vs Smokeless powder. Winchester no longer makes the Red Wad, but Claybuster makes a good copy of it.

The 7th one down, CB 1138-12.

https://www.claybusterwads.com/index.php/product-by-style/by-style-winchester

 

[whughett]

Driftwood: The 3F is Grafs, the 2F is Old Eynsford, A Goex product. Bad sentence structure on my part.

 

[DocRock]

I use Old Eynsford almost exclusively and 2F in shotgun loads. I do not believe the difference in bulk will be enough to require a change in shot column. The difference can be overcome with a bit more conpression. Good luck.

 

[BullRunBear]

Thanks for mentioning getting the paper hulls from Grafs. I have an old Stevens 12 ga. SxS I want to use to play around with BP loads for trap shooting. It will be a lot faster than loading my muzzleloader 12 ga. I don't want to use plastic hulls with BP and finding paper hulls around here is an exercise in futility.

Jeff

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

Sorry it took me so long to get back, due to my feeble little mind and memory. I checked on my shotgun reloader as promised and lo and behold it has an adjustable charge bar. It's opened all the way up. I haven't thrown a charge yet to see what it measures but will do so when I get a chance and or remember.

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

BTW I use plastic hulls, wads etc. Mine are those silly pink ones that I have picked up at different locations while out hunting or shooting. It makes it easy to keep track of the black powder shells.

 

[whughett]

The above, if anyone can view them are two of the three experiments in black powder shells, attempted to pattern at 25 yards. They should have been at the end of this overall long post but I gave up trying to get them there.




Thanks for the replies.
My initial project was being able to shoot a 120 year old shotgun safely. A book. Remington Shotguns, by Charles G. Semmer states these guns , the1894 Remingtons were originally proofed tested for Nitro Powders, even those with Damascus set of barrels. By its serial number this copy left the factory in 1910 the last year they were made. Not sure which set was original , but at some point the gun was returned and the second set fitted and numbered. But given its age,I’ll just use blackpowder shells.




So far I’ve kept the powder charges to between 60 and 68 grains of powder, Lee 3.7 or 4.0 CC measure. A range visit today produced 6 sheets of paper, each with one shot from the left and right barrel, modified left, improved modified right, of the 28 inch Remington steel barrel, at 25 yards Three different powder charges, two shot weights, wads and cards. In two different hulls.

First Load. Plastic shot wads from disassembled Sellier and Bellot field loads. These wads, trimmed down 1/4 inch in length, and reassemble into the same hulls take 7/8 oz of shot, over Lee 4.0 CC’s of 3F an over cardboard card and a roll crimp.
These hulls have a plastic base wad that creates a shoulder that takes at least the 4CC of powder in order to cover the base wad Had thought to de cap and reuse the primers but discovered they are too loose a fit in Federal, Remington or Winchester primer pockets. A one shot hull unless I can locate the proper primer. Don’t think I’ll bother.




The second was a Federal Gold Medal Hull with 4.0 CC of 3F a nitro card, 1/2 cushion wad , 1 1/8 oz of #8, a cardboard card and roll crimp. The original 8point crimp was trimmed off.



The third was the Federal hull, 4.0 CC of 3F, nitro card, a Plastic wad , not trimmed in length, 1 1/8oz of shot, cardboard card over shot. Roll crimp.

Got half way to the range and realized I hadn’t brought anything to attach to the blank white paper as a aiming point. It’s difficult to pick center with no reference point so the patterns may only be representative. Going to redo with 2F, the original point of this thread when it gets here from Grafs. The focal point will also be on loading period correct, 1910, paper shells as much as possible.
All this for fun

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

Just curious as to why you didn't use the standard crimp? I crimp my pink shells with the standard crimp and not had problems. That over shot wad and roll crimp looks like a pain in the keister.

 

[whughett]

I opened the shells of two full boxes of Stieller &Bellot and salvaged the shot and wads. Dumped the powder and reloaded with black powder. These boxes have been on the shelf in the basement for I’ve lost track of how many years. It was an easy way to get components. I really don’t want to buy a full bag of shot, and I don't want to shoot field loads in the old gun, Viola, primed hulls, shortened to 2 1/4 inches. Perfect for roll crimping.

Once I decide on a load, I’ll load that up in paper shells with a six point crimp on the Mec650

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

I was doing enough bird hunting to justify getting stuff together to load for my Damascus Parker. So far primers and powder have been all I've paid for, friends and family have given me most everything else. Something to look at on your gun is if it's got a short forcing cone, having it reamed to longer cones is worth it.

 

[whughett]

Forcing cone? I didn’t know shot guns had one.

 

[Jackrabbit1957]

Yup, look through the breech end and you should see what looks like a stepped down area just after the chambers. Older shotguns usually have short forcing cones, in other words a rather quick reduction in taper from chamber to barrel diameter. This can be reamed to a longer more gradual taper. It reduces felt recoil considerably, think of 20 fat guys trying go through the same door at the same time, something has to give, make the door bigger , you get the idea.

 

[whughett]

So that’s what that is. It’s rather pronounced in both sets of barrels. I had to probe it with a straight edge to confirm it wasn’t a shoulder.
The recoil is no problem, two inches of soft rubber absorbed that.

 

[whughett]

Update. Loaded the Fiocchi paper shells with the 2F, which by the way wasn’t Goex but Grafs own brand, using the same 4.0CC measure, a nitro card, the same measure of #8 shot, two 1/2 “ cushion wads and an eight point crimp on my Mec 650. Shot into a blank sheet of white paper at 25 yards. The pattern is pretty much as pictured earlier, more centered as this time I had a central aiming point. Sound, recoil and smoke seemed comparable to the 3F. I’d would have to shoot over my Chrony to tell the difference, but I don’t think I want to know bad enough to try that.

The paper shells take a nice 8pt crimp and the fired ones are certainly reloadable.