Making your own black powder shotgun shells

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ak-kev

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OK guys, be gentle. I've been reloading since 1987 but I have NEVER loaded a shotgun shell. I wont be doing massive amounts as I have tons stored for emergencies. I just want to learn how to load with black powder and take 10 or 12 to the pasture when I go.

The chopped Stevens 311 (from another thread) is absolutely wonderful and looks mean:fire: So it will be the candidate for the BP loads. I watch Mike's videos on loading without expensive equipment and I understand the basics but have a couple of detail questions. I've read about the "square load" where you powder volume matches your shot volume (80grs of powder=80grs of shot).

1. I have several pounds of 3f here, can I use this instead of 2f for the time being?

2. What about wads? Can I punch wads from the same material I use for my BP revolvers?

3. Do I make or buy the over shot wads and are they just cardboard/poster board?


Sorry for being such a rookie in this matter. Thank you. Kevin.
 
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FFg is what they recommend for use in muzzleloading shotguns.The 3f raises the pressures too high for safe use in shotguns, I`ve been told.
If you want to use 3f,I`d check with a gunsmith who knows his way around muzzlelaoders and black powder, and see what he has to say.
It is safe to use 3f in a muzzleloading rifle, just reduce the load by about 10%.Shotguns are a different matter, though.
You should be all right with the wads you can puchase.
 
I've read about the "square load" where you powder volume matches your shot volume (80grs of powder=80grs of shot).

A common load for a BP shotshell is 2.75 drams of FFg (about 75 grains) and 1 1/8 oz of shot (492 grains).
I don't have a BP powder measure handy so as to weigh the 75 grain volume of shot.
Generally, that "equal" volume business refers to muzzleloaders. Shotshells are not the same.

Can I punch wads from the same material I use for my BP revolvers?
BP shotshells are an entirely different animal. They are yet different than muzzleloading shotguns.
The wad column is a BP shotshell normally has three components.The first is a nitro or overpowder card...very stiff cardboard about 1/8" thick, then cushion wads of felt or some other fiber...how many you use depends on the powder and shot load combo. You need to bring the entire column up to where it can be effectively star or roll crimped. The over shot wad is needed only if you are roll crimping.
Pete
 
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Ak-kev,

Reduce the 75 grain "suggested" load to about 65 grains and FFFg will work OK. With black powder it is better to use real card wads, not plastic wad columns. You will need to experiment on how many of which wads will give the best crimp with your shoot charge. Or, simply cut off the crimp all together and glue on an over shot wad with Duco cement. Using 65 grains of FFFg in 12 gage plastic hulls, I found that one .125 OP card wad and one 3/8 cushion wad gave me the best patterns with 1 1/8 Oz.of shot. Actually the pattern was better when I increased the shot charge to 1 1/4 using the same powder charge. Not having to worry about the crimp makes loading shot-shells lots easier. Even better buy a couple of boxes of all-brass shells and 11 gage wads. These can be loaded with a nail to de-prime and a stick to seat the wads.
 
Howdy

Although I always use FFg myself there is no problem using FFFg in shotshells in your Stevens. We are not talking muzzle loaders here. It will not raise pressure all that much.

With all due respect to Mike's video, there are a couple of other ways to load BP in a shotgun shell. A lot of us do it for CAS.

I recommend you get yourself either a Lee Load All

http://leeprecision.com/shot-shell-reloading/shot-shell-reloading-press/

Or a MEC Jr.

http://www.mecreloaders.com/ProductLine/600JrMark5.asp

There are plenty of both of these on the used market.

If you use one of these machines you do not need to be cutting hulls, the press forms the crimp for you. And you usually will not need an over shot card because the crimp should hold everything in place.

There are two basic ways to load Black Powder into modern shotgun shells. Either you use modern plastic wads or you use separate card and fiber wads. By far the easiest thing to do is to use modern plastic wads. That is what most guys do who shoot Black Powder in their shotguns in CAS. The most popular wad most guys use is the old Winchester Red Wad. The problem with most modern shotgun wads is they are too tall overall and do not leave enough space for the powder charge. That is fine for a Smokeless charge but you need more volume for a BP powder charge. The old Winchester Red Wad filled the bill, but unfortunately Winchester stopped producing it a few years ago. But fear not, Claybuster makes their own version of the same wad.

http://www.claybusterwads.com/index.php/product-by-style/by-style-winchester

CB1138-12 (WAA12R), the 7th one down.

Using plastic wads is much simpler than using separate wads. The drawback is that since Black Powder burns hotter than Smokeless, a little bit of the wad melts on its way down the bore and there is usually a bit of melted plastic left in the bore. This is not a big deal, lots and lots of guys do it. You just have to get the plastic out again when you clean the shotgun. Usually allowing the barrels to sit for a while filled with hot water will loosen the plastic so it can all be driven out by a damp paper towel shoved down the bore.

The other option, which I prefer, is to use separate wads. Yes, you can make your own, but I prefer to buy mine. I buy them from Circle Fly.

http://www.circlefly.com/

Track of the Wolf also carries the Circle Fly line.

You are going to need an Over Powder (Nitro) Card and a fiber Cushion Wad. You may or may not also need an Over Shot Card, depending on the total height of your powder/wad/shot column.

For 12 gauge I use the 1/8" thick Over Powder Card, and the 1/2" thick Fiber Cushion Wad. The Over Powder Card seals the powder gasses behind behind the shot and the Cushion Wad does just what it says, it cushions the impact of the expanding gasses to the shot.

A Square Load simply means the same volume of shot and powder. Do not get all hung up in the business of measuring powder by weight or volume, it is not worth the argument. Very generally speaking, if you put in more powder than shot, by volume, you will tend to over power the shot and blow a hole in the pattern. I hear guys in CAS bragging about how much powder they stuff in the hull, and then they wonder why they cannot hit anything. Equal volume of powder and shot works fine. However if you want a little bit less recoil, putting in less powder than shot, by volume, also works, and that is in fact what I do.

If you use the MEC Jr, it comes with a standard powder/shot bar that delivers 1 1/8 ounces of shot. That is what I use.

Get yourself a set of Lee dippers. I do not want to get into any arguments here about static electricity and Black Powder and plastic. I simply never put Black Powder into the plastic powder bottles of a shot shell press. Instead I dip my powder. I use the largest dipper in the Lee set, the 4.3CC dipper. Not all Black Powder weighs the same. That is part of the problem with the weight vs volume argument. In actual weight, when I use the 4.3CC dipper, I am using about 64 grains of Schuetzen FFg or about 58.5 grains of Goex FFg. Notice I said about! If you weigh it your self you may get different weights because BP can also vary by weight from lot to lot.

So, here is my 12 gauge BP recipe.

12 gauge hull, I prefer the Remington STS.
Any shotgun primer, I usually use Winchester.
4.3CC of whatever brand FFg. (or FFFg if that is all you have)
Circle Fly 1/8" thick Over Powder Card
Circle Fly 1/2" fiber Cushion Wad
1 1/8 ounces of shot (I like #8 myself but you can use pretty much what ever you want)
Circle Fly over shot card.

This load is actually less than a square load. The powder volume is less than the shot volume. As I said before, it is no problem and will not over power the shot. The reason I use the Over Shot Card is because this powder/wad/shot column does not quite fill up the hull and the crimp is slightly concave. This sometimes leaves a small hole at the center of the crimp and some shot pellets can leak out. By placing the Over Shot Card on top of the shot it seals the shot in and none can leak out.

I use my old MEC Jr. First I decap and resize in station one as usual. Seat a primer in station two as usual. Then I pull the hull off the press and dip out my powder, pouring it in using a small powder funnel. Then back on the press at station three I seat my Over Powder Card using the ram of the press. This does not push the card quite all the way down, so I take the hull off once more and use a piece of 5/8" wooden dowel rod to seat the card against the powder. I lean on it a bit and listen for a slight crunch. That is plenty of compression.** Then back on station three on the press and seat the fiber cushion wad, then drop the shot, then seat the over shot card. Over to station four to start the crimp and station five to finish the crimp.

Taking the hull off the press twice does slow things down a bit, but I can still crank out about three boxes an hour this way.

If I were to be using plastic wads I would do everything the same except I would only seat the plastic wad at station three before crimping. I would have to see how the crimp looked to decide if I needed an over shot card or not.

That's it, pretty simple, been doing it a bunch of years this way.

P.S. Most older shotguns had a relatively short forcing cone. separate wads worked fine with these. Most newer shotguns have a longer forcing cone. Modern plastic wads bridge the longer forcing cone a bit better. With a modern longer forcing cone separate wads can tend to upset a bit in the forcing cone, and this can affect your pattern.

But even with separate wads, my old Stevens hammer double which has had its forcing cone lengthened, always knocks down anything I point it at.

**Safety Note. When compressing the powder with the dowel, I make sure to keep my head and chest clear of the dowel. Just in case. I have my MEC Jr mounted on a piece of wood, and I drilled a flat bottomed hole in the wooden base. I seat the hull in this hole when charging with powder and when compressing the powder. Just for safety's sake I always make sure a stray piece of shot that might contact the primer has not found its way into the hole when I am compressing the powder.
 
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Driftwood Johnson, as usual, has provided a definitive answer. You cannot go wrong following his instructions.

That said, I will add that a lot of us use much smaller powder and shot charges. I commonly use a 3.1 cc LEE Dipper for powder, which will throw about 48 grains equivalent of powder, under a Winchester white plastic wad, and 1 ounce of shot. No over powder or over shot cards necessary. The 8-point crimp on a Winchester AA or Remington STS hull closes nicely on my MEC 600 Jr. This is a very mild 12 gauge load, fun to shoot, still gives lots of smoke and boom, and will throw enough shot for bird hunting.

Blackpowder is much more forgiving than smokeless. Tweak powder and shot volumes as necessary to get a good solid crimp.
 
Don't worry about the difference between FFg and FFFg. Neither you or your shotgun will know the difference. I agree with J-Bar on reducing the powder charge below the "square load" amount. Not necessary. Just makes more smoke and flame.
 
What Driftwood, J-Bar and Noz said. My BP load is STS or Nitro Gold 27 hull, 55 gr ffg, Claybuster CB1100 wad and 1 oz of 7 1/2 shot. This load manages to take out all them pesky knockdown targets and flying clay disks.
 
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Unbelievable. What a wealth of information. Guys, I really appreciate it. I have some reading to do now. It seems to me now that the claybuster wads would be the easiest route and they're really cheap too. Kevin.



P.S. Do I have to be particular about the type/brand of hulls?
 
P.S. Do I have to be particular about the type/brand of hulls?

With Smokeless, yes. Black Powder is much more forgiving. You can use any brand of hulls you want. The reason a lot of us in CAS like the STS hulls is they are very smooth and slick. There are no ejectors allowed in CAS, so we usually jerk the shotgun backwards to empty it. The slicker Winchester AA and Remington STS hulls fly out the most easily. But for walking through the woods, it does not matter. Open the gun and pick out the empties.

You do remember what I told you about the gun wanting to close partway with short barrels don't you? You will probably have to brace it open when you pluck out the empties.
 
Yes sir, I remember. I've bought the gun and did a detailed cleaning and Im ready to start making BP loads. I really appreciate you taking the time to teach me. Im indebted to you sir. Please dont take offense to me pushing forward with the chopped 311. I realize Im going against your advice, but I just couldn't get over the "cool" factor. Kevin.
 
The local loader that does a lot of the BP shot shells for our CAS group strongly advised against plastic shot cup wads. He said he's seen melted plastic streaks in the barrels in the past. As a result he only uses thick felt cushion wads now.

I gather some of you have had good results with the plastic wads. I wonder if it's brand specific or not?
 
Plastic wads do melt and leave melted plastic in the barrels; however, I've not had any problems with them effecting target acquisition, and there are a number of ways to clean the plastic out. My procedure is to remove the barrels from the frame & stand them up with the muzzles in a trash can. I liberally spray Windex or Birchwood Casey #77 BP solvent down the barrels & let them sit for 30 min to an hour. Then, a wet paper towell wadded up and pushed through the barrel will expell all the plastic and BP fouling. Usually only takes one wadded up towell; but after a three or four day match, it might take two or three. Follow up with a Balistol soaked patch & you're done.
 
What Driftwood, J-Bar and Noz said.
Curious....I feel left out.
Was there something wrong with post #3?

About "square" loads in shotshells/another definition....." “A balanced load is what is called a ‘square’ load—the width of the shot column is approximately the same as its height.” (about 0.293+/- Cubic inches of shot in a 12 ga.)
The concept that a "square" load is equal volumes of shot and powder is an extension of muzzleloading shotguns. In those marvelous weapons, the wad column is much more dynamic in that there are more possiblities because there is no need to crimp or deal with a chamber of a particular length. The grand dad of modern BP shotguns, V.M. Starr, used only a piece of cardboard between the powder charge and the shot load. A common BP MLer load nowadays is to use five OS cards between powder and shot. Cutting a shotshell down and gluing an OS card in mimics this.
Pete

Pete
 
Fingers McGee is one of those rich retirees who can afford a trash can.

I have to lay my barrels down on a workbench while the Ballistol soaks out out the plastic residue.

Do you get the idea that there are a lot of different ways to skin this cat??
 
Here's a little video I made of me using the Lee Load All.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGqXNx65RIs

Note that I am using Winchester Red Wads instead of fiber wads. The plastic wads work fine, but will add an extra step to your cleaning, as they leave streaks of plastic down your barrel. No big deal, easy to clean, but the first time you see them it may scare you.

Anyway, the process is basically the same whether you use plastic or fiber. Just more steps when using fiber. You have to seat the overpowder card, then seat the cushion wad.

You'll also notice that I'm not using the primer auto feed. I've found it easier to just line up some primers on the table, push an unprimed shell down part way over a primer, then fully seat it with the press.

I'm using a Lee 7/8ths oz dipper for the powder charge, and a 7/8th oz charge of shot. I don't use the powder hopper on the press because none of the powder bushings are large enough to throw that much powder.
 
J-Bar said:
Fingers McGee is one of those rich retirees who can afford a trash can.

I have to lay my barrels down on a workbench while the Ballistol soaks out out the plastic residue.

Do you get the idea that there are a lot of different ways to skin this cat??

You're just jealous cause Sheri is retired now. Maybe she'll buy you a trash can to use. It is Valentines day ya know. :D
 
I have loaded BP shells with 3F many times and never a problem. I do use the plastic one piece shot wads with a short fiber wad over the powder to somewhat protect the plastic wad base from excessive heat.

I also use the old English maxim for BP smoothbores, much shot, little powder, shoot far.
 
Here's about everything I know and have learned regarding BP Shotgunning for Cowboy Action Shooting:

About 15 years ago I shot in one of my favorite two day annual shoots and only had 4 misses two of which were shotgun fallers that failed to go down. At a second annual I could not bring any of the fallers down on the first stage with repeated hits and an 80 gr BP 1 1/8oz load. Fortunately, we were the first posse and I was one of the first to shoot it and the RO reset the fallers to a lighter setting but that was intimidating to me to not blow them over. Lots of smoke and noise but no "umph". This was before much standardization of target size & distance; they were heavy and out there a ways. So I went on a quest to improve the patterns in my cut down (cyl/cyl) Stevens 311. BlackJack Traven on the old CAS-L (earliest CAS Email bulletin board I know of) suggested STEEL SHOT CUPS after relating a similar experience. I tried them during extensive patterning tests and have not had problems with knockdowns since. Ballistics Products is my source for the wads.

First of all, the WAA12R (AA Red Wad or Claybusters generic equivalent CB 1138-12) is a very versitile wad for CHOKED guns. You can adapt any AA wad and several other types of plastic one piece wads to 2 or 3 heights by merely slicing out some or all of the "legs":
-Cut them out entirely (shortest wad column i.e. over powder seal & shot cup)
-Cutting the "legs" across the middle and rotating the wad 90 degrees and pressing the parts together for a medium high wad
-leave it intact for the tallest wad column.
There you go: a "3 sizes fits all" AA wad for light or heavy loads in the same or different hulls. Works for the red or white wads.

In order to get tighter patterns from my 311 and my TTN, I use 3 different Ballistic Products wads:
LBC-50 trimmed with tin snips to 30mm and slit twice full length. (I use a utility knife/box cutter)
CSD 118 also trimmed & slit twice
BP12 TUFF steel shot cup slit twice over any kind of salvaged over powder plastic gas seal wad

I tried not slitting the wads but they tumbled and threw elongated irregular patterns with about 1/3 of the shot load traveling backwards still inside the cup. I used 4 slits half length without improvement in the patterns. I used 75-80 grs FFg and 1 1/8oz shot as my load. My patterning board was an IPSC target or a large cardboard box with a sheet of freezer paper stapled to it at about 20 yards. Mark an aiming point on the paper. You can use 10 or 15 yards distance too. I think a full choke pattern is 10 inches in diameter at 10 yards but check a shotgun reloading manual for the various widths of patterns expected at various yardages for the equivalent choke. I cannot overestimate the importance of this simple patterning. You may find your gun shoots high, low, or God knows where til you see where the center of that pattern hits compared to where your aimed. I found that I was having some misses on stationary targets with an IGA Coachgun because the barrels were "walleyed" (left barrel hit low & left, right barrel hit high & right).

Results: all 3 above wads threw nice, even MODIFIED CHOKE patterns from my cylinder bores.

I now have essentially two loads. A light "gamer" load equivalent to a 20 ga of 55grs BP (or ANY sub other than 777) with 7/8oz of #8 or #9 shot using any wad column that allows a decent crimp. I use a plastic gas seal (PGS) OP wad and after that, anything goes: fiber, plastic, cards etc. The light load is for those ever increasing stationary targets and swingers, or fallers so close that any reasonable hit will take them down. I load the light loads in green hulls. My heavier, steel shot cup load is put into red hulls. I can essentially change chokes by changing ammo.

I have used 3F, 2F, 5FA (blasting powder of 3F grind), Pyrodex P, Pyrodex RS, Black Canyon, CleanShot in both light and heavy loads. No problem. All throw lighter pressures than smokeless.

Now, as DGB#29 (that's Dirty Gamey Bastard #29) I also will load custom loads for specific conditions. A big load of wide pattern (no shot cup at all but a PGS+Filler) with 80grs powder and 1 1/8os shot comes in handy. I'll use #9s for the pop up soda cans and briquets and #6s for the times when I think I can get more than one faller per shot when they're placed closer together. I've occasionally gotten 3 down with one shot. This usually happens with the full intent of the stage writer to let shooters "game it" by leaning over or doing whatever to see if they can get some doubles. It's a major fun factor.
So, you've got a hard little knockdown that throws up a can of pop: Left barrel gets a red round and the right gets the wide #9s. Just as if I had chokes, I shoot the tight load first to drop the faller and the open bore for the flyer. It's just like hunting, you have different loads for different critters close or far.

Keep in mind that BP doesn't throw shot as fast as smokeless powder. The short coach guns throw out a lot of unburned powder compared to a 30" gun. The slower to burn BP likes a long barrel to burn it all for maximum velocity. With smokeless, the powder is all burned in the first 18-20" of barrel. So, you are shooting softer loads to begin with. Just to get the equivalent of a standard 3 dram 1 1/8oz trap load you need to go to 82 grs of black. A lot of folks are shooting 55-60grs BP in a 12 ga. That's slow. In order to make up for the velocity lack you need a tight pattern. That's why I like the steel shot cups to put choke where it's needed to blow down the big steel.
 
Keep in mind that BP doesn't throw shot as fast as smokeless powder.

Not true, even smokeless loads are based on dram equivelent of BP loads to achieve same velocity.
 
Hangfire is correct. I'll have to change that statement. I see a lot of people who shoot BP, load light loads and they can be underpowered. A 3 dram 1 1/8oz BP load is a fully stuffed hull if using a fold crimp. If your gun focuses the shot into a tight pattern even slow loads will take down the steel.
 
Well, I've got everything ordered and next week I should be trying it out. I appreciate everything. I'll let you know how it turns out. Kevin.
 
i was wondering how these would operate in a modern pump shotgun. i can imagine they would probably gum it up pretty bad, it just made me chuckle reading all this shotshell reloading stuff and imagining my mossberg 500 cruiser belching out black powder smoke clouds lol (not my most ideal shotgun as i have discovered, anyone wanna trade? :p)
 
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