Goex Pinnacle 3f

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mec

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New Products take one to two years to reach the retailers in this area so I ate the $20 Hazmat tax and ordered two cans of this from Graf's and Son. It is of course, a relatively new Black Powder substitute which web posters say is made by the American Pioneer people for Goex. A. Pioneer is a very fine powder with different grain sizes mixed in. It is brown in color and is noted for being exceptionally "clean" and very low powered compared to black powder and other substitutes. Our shooting of it has been limited but we have found it to provide consistent velocities when loaded in the same manner as other propellants.

Pinnacle is very course-grained and blacker than Pioneer. It is alleged to be non-hygroscopic though, the presence of a desicant pack inside the can makes me wonder about that. It also tends to clump like pyrodex- indicating that at least in its unfired state, there is some moisture transfer taking place.

We shot it in 75 degree temperature with near-absent humidity due to drought conditions. A high wind kept us from noticing the volume of smoke or any odor and there was no odor about the fired handguns. In general, it ignited very well even with some old CVA pre-magnum caps I had on hand. Decanting it from flask or powder measure was tedious as it tends to bridge and stop up the spouts. This tendency was present with the approximately forty caliber micrometer adj. Measure I used for most loads. Loading was done in the same manner we use Black Powder and other substitutes (except h777) with balls compressed the full extent of the loading ram and no wads or inert fillers. This is possible with the loads used with all of the substitutes. While black powder will generally not allow this level of compression with the full chamber charges, it will do so with the majority of loads we used today.

.31 Colt type Pocket Model
Average velocity for five shots , .320 ball 12.5 grain charge was 415 feet per second Extreme spread was 117 feet per second- quite large considering the low average velocity. By comparison, we have recorded 720fps/ 51 spread with Goex; and 682/47 with Pyrodex P.
I was shooting over the chronograph at a 30 yard target - one hand and produced about a five inch group low on the silhouette. This is so much better than my usual shooting with a pocket model that I know it was a fluke.

.36. Model 61 Navy.-.380" Warren Ball and 22 Gr/vol Equivalent- Average of six rounds 754fps/136 spread. Substituting .375 Ball six rounds averaged 753 fps /46. This appeared to be a consistent combination so I fired another six rounds of the same load, This time-769/141 fps- the wide spread caused by a single outlier that clocked 856 fps . The down range groups fired in the manner above had several widely scattered fliers.
By comparison the same volume charge and a .375" ball did this with Goex FFFG- 966/65; with swiss fffg-1070/37 and Pyrodex P-1046/36. From a 51 Navy loaded with the same charge of American Pioneer, we got 639/113.

.44 1860 Army
35 Gr/vol equivalent .454 Ball 788/85 and with a 40 grain /vol eqivalent, we got 880 fps/125. I shot a moderately good 30 yard off-hand group with both loads. With 35 grains of Pyrodex P and the .454 Ball, this revolver has done 1055/69. With Swiss 3fg-1031/48.
We recorded 855/37 from a Second Generation Colt loaded with ball and 35 grains of Goex 3f. the Pinnacle appears to be narrowing the gap in velocity with Goex 3f but is less consistent shot to shot.

.44 Uberti Dragoon.
This revolver was the only one that demonstrated exceptional accuracy and acceptible consistency with Goex Pinnacle;
Six shots .454 Ball/ 50 Gr/vol equivalent Velocity /Spread= 951/49.
Six shots .457 Ball/50 Gr/vol. Equivalent Velocity/Spread=953/89
The 50 grain charge with .454 ball and goex has recorded 890/37. Swiss 37 has done 1217/51 while 45 gra/ vol of pyrodex P recorded 1157/55.
The dragoon showded some promise with Pinnacle. I shot a very fine .30 yard six shot "duelist"group with the .457" ball load group. The Pinnacle loads in the Dragoon actually exceeded velocities recorded with Goex 3f on a different day.
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.45 Caliber Spanish Single Shot
.440 Ball / .015" patch /20 gr/vol charge
Velocities in sequence: 363, 368,438,461, 531(swab bore), 511,500,452,430. Extreme spread= 168 feet per second. With other powders, this pistol has demonstrated extreme spreads ranging from 19 to 70 feet per second.

It appears that Pinnacle is much less consistent and usually less powerful than black powder or the other substitutes and altogether less versatile. It became more consistent at the .44 Caliber level and actually equaled or bettered the velocity performance of Goex 3f. It was just about useless in a normally well-behaved single shot. Fouling build up on the external parts was minimal and wiped away with little or no effort. The revolvers never began to bind from any accumulation. There was no more residue than might have occurred with a modern revolver and jacketed bullets. The bore was quite a different matter as fouling quicly accumulated and seemingly baked on to the lands and grooves. It required quite a bit of effort to remove with the bp wash we had in the field but responded quickly to alcohol when It came time for thorough cleaning.
All in all, I prefer black powder and the other substitutes for their consistency and predictability. Of the substitutes, Pyrodex P is superior in revolvers and H777 has a number of advantages in the accurate single shot target and field pistols.
 
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Thanks for that report Mec. Looks like I'll stick with my Goex when I can get and for now I'll stay with this Pyrodex "P".
 
Haven't played with Trail boss but some trustworthy others have. It seems to do exactly what the ads claim. Unique satisfies my needs for those loads though it does have a threshold of efficiency that is maybe a bit hotter than some of the CAS loads.
 
Mec, super report.

I have been shooting the 2F Goex Pinnacle in ROAs and in cartridge for a few months. I only shoot cowboy action. Your report confirms my seat of the pants findings from shooting the powder. I felt that full case loads were actually mild compared to Goex Cowboy I had been using steady.
I had tried plenty of the Cleanshot/APP powder and liked the fact that I needed no wad or anything like a BP lube. The Pinnacle feeds better from my measure when I load cartridges than the APP. The coating on the powder must help keep the corrosion down too, because with APP I had to clean the brass barrel on my Lyman measure or it would stick. I do not have to clean the Pinnacle from it and that means it isn't as hard on brass. Smokes real well. I like it and I bought a 12 lb case recently and will give it more of a trial. I still don't load for shotgun with it. Too expensive. I still use true powder (Goex) for that.
I really enjoyed your report and although I have been lurking on this board, I went ahead and registered, just so I could tell you that I appreciate your efforts. :)
 
Bates, the guy I shoot with used APP quite a lot for clean shooting and easy clean up.
 
MEC-

Great report. Any thoughts on Pinnacle's ignition point? (i.e. is it harder to ignite that Pyrodex?)

Keep up the good work.

Doug
 
It doesn't ignite as easily as black powder-nothing does. I got to our shooting range with the chambers oily and tried to set off small doses of the stuff when I popped caps to clear the chambers. What usually happened was that unburned flakes flew out the barrel. On the other hand, I didn't have any slow ignitions with any of the revolvers.
 
Excellent report, mec! Thanks very much for the effort that went into collecting the data and sharing it.

I have to quibble slightly with one statement you made about APP. I have several pounds of it (FFFg granulation), and it is distinctly gray, not brown. It is also VERY hygroscopic. If left open for even a short period of time (an hour or so), it begins to clump up. I gave up on the stuff when I got consistent bridging problems in my Dillon powder measure (I load cartridges for cowboy action shooting).

I do agree that APP is quite weak and inconsistent, however.

As far as the subs go, I've tried APP, Pyrodex and Triple Seven. I like 777 the best for cartridges, but none of them hold a candle to real black powder. Besides missing that wonderful sulfurous aroma, they are all harder to clean up than real black powder. I've found that when using real Goex black powder for a full day's cowboy match, I can clean two revolvers, a rifle and a shotgun with just hot water and Ballistol in about 15 minutes. With APP and 777, the cleanup takes quite a bit longer due to stubborn bore deposits. My unscientific opinion is that the deposits are primarily the result of the wax-based lube on the store-bought bullets I used with those powders. Of course, in my estimation the only advantage to the "subs" is that they supposedly allow the use of cheap commercial wax-lubed bullets. If I have to go to trouble and expense of melting out the wax lube and relubing the bullets with a black powder lube, I might as well use real black powder in the cartridges, which is what I now do.

Anyone want a couple pounds of APP? ;)
 
"I have to quibble slightly with one statement you made about APP...."
I think they may advertise it is not corrosive or hygroscopic - either that or somebody said they advertise it that way....
Actually, I've only shot enough of the stuff to record some velocities and realize that it was a bit puny for my prejudices. It does wash off pretty easily which is why bates likes it.
 
Cleaning?

It has now been over a month since I ran this deal on Pinnacle. I got home with 4 revolvers that had been shot with it -Bates supplied the others.

While I'm not comfortable guaranteeing this, I cleaned the guns like I do smokeless powder revolvers- cleaning kit solvent and oil and put them away. I've kept a close watch on them and detect no rust inside or out.
 
Just out of curiosity, have you tried it in a rifle to see how it compares to the other powders? By looking at your data, it seems that it gets more consistant and more powerful as the powder charge is increased. It got me thinking that maybe in a rifle with an 80 to 100 grain charge might be pretty good, but I don't have a rifle to try it myself.
 
I wouldn't be surprised if you are right about that. Haven't tried it in a rifle.
 
Here`s what happens in a front stuffer 50 cal. APP 3 F its puney which is ok for plinking dinging and knock down targets .. i`d rather throw the rifle at a deer than shoot it with APP .. i was useing a 65 gr . APP load under a patched round ball .. like i said okok on the targets . but switched the rifle to 3f pyrodex and noticed at 30yrds .. the pyrodex made the rifle shoot 3 inches high ! .... so on the short of it ..if you sight one in with the APP .. fine but if you run out of powder mid match ... don`t think a scoop of pyrodex will hold the same sighting , you`ll shoot over your next target .. :banghead:
 
I tried Pinnacle 3f in my Ruger 77/50 with 300gr sabots. I found that it took alot of powder to reproduce the same velocity as Goex. Grain for grain by weight, Pinnacle produced less velocity than Goex for twice the cost. I also found that Pinnacle will clump together sitting in the bottle. Overall I found that it did not produce better results than other products, and it's cost did not warrant its' continued use. My testing has concluded that, Pyrodex, 777, and Goex are better propellants when cost, performance and shots per pound are considered. Because of its' cost/performance, I don't see Pinnacle surviving long.
 
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