Gonna start a war, but this is a serious question

[FlyinBryan]

If you are correct (and I am assuming you are)

well, dont do that yet. this is just what i have in one of my books. i have the newest version of the lee modern reloading that im looking at now but it does not show imr for 168g bullets.

the loads i'm using with the imr came from a really old lymans book, but it also matches the hodgdons website data for imr4895, but matches very few others on that site.
http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

i usually only use that site for reference because rarely does it match or even come close, but on the imr4895-168g bullets it actually does, at least with my older lymans book. (my newer book does not even list imr4895 for 168g bullets. go figure.

 

[Pete D.]

Loads

If I may join the soiree about 150s at 3000fps+
The Nosler book has a single load at that velocity - a compressed load of 59 grains of IMR 4350.
The Barnes book has two - 62 grains of RL19 or 59 grains of H414.
Hornady lists six loads using the 150s in excess of 3000fps
Sierra also lists six loads at 3000fps for the 150 grain bullet.
Max charges of imr 4895 and a 168 grainer;

SIERRA - 46.8 (2700fps)
NOSLER - 48.0 (2720 fpps)
BARNES - 47.5 (2732 fps)
Hornady does not list IMR 4895 for either 150s or 168s (not the edition that I have)

 

[d2wing]

Some guys like to argue a point when they don't have one. Not that I have ever done that on here.

 

[Kachok]

If I may join the soiree about 150s at 3000fps+
The Nosler book has a single load at that velocity - a compressed load of 59 grains of IMR 4350.
The Barnes book has two - 62 grains of RL19 or 59 grains of H414.
Hornady lists six loads using the 150s in excess of 3000fps
Sierra also lists six loads at 3000fps for the 150 grain bullet.
Max charges of imr 4895 and a 168 grainer;

SIERRA - 46.8 (2700fps)
NOSLER - 48.0 (2720 fpps)
BARNES - 47.5 (2732 fps)
Hornady does not list IMR 4895 for either 150s or 168s (not the edition that I have)

Those are all well below the 2880fps quoted earlier. How long is that barrel on your 06 Bryan?

 

[Kachok]

OK found it, max load of H4895 with a 150gr bullet is 46gr yeilding 2806fps. That is streight fron hogdons website. Bryan you might want to invest in a new chrono, there is no way you are getting 200fps out of 1 extra gr I don't care how long your barrel is
Max for 168s is 48gr at 2719fps, about what all other sources have listed. Sure that is burning 308 level powder charges, but it is slower then the 308 too.

 

[FlyinBryan]

That is streight fron hogdons website

Max for 168s is 48gr at 2719fps

i guess i not only need a new chrono, but a new brain, because im looking at the same website, and it says max load for imr4895 and a 168g bullet is 51.2 grains of powder @2859fps.

i will try to copy and paste it.
Cartridge: 30-06
Load Type: Rifle
Starting Loads

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Maximum Loads

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bullet Weight (Gr.) Manufacturer Powder Bullet Diam. C.O.L. Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

168 GR. HDY HPBT IMR IMR 4895 .308" 3.230" 48.0 2719 49,900 PSI 51.2 2859 58,200 PSI

 

[Kachok]

LOL my bad, I was looking at the starting load, too many number on such a small screen, but that is still the same speed as a 308 with only 44gr of RL15. I have worked the numbers 50 different ways and in each bullet weight the 308 seems to burn aprox 6-10gr less powder for the same performance.

 

[d2wing]

I've been looking too. :IMR 4895 53 gr 3009 fps. 150 gr sp
my fav ;4064 52.5 gr 901 fps 165gr psp
30-06 Hornady fact ; 180 gr at 2900fps interbond max. Hornaday has found a way toi aplly more modernscience to the 30-06 loads:

 

[Kachok]

The only thing I don't like about hogdon/hornady is their reload data for the 6.5x55 only list small ring mauser pressures (46,000 CUP) not modern action pressures, making them utterly worthelss to me since that is the rifle I shoot most by far.

 

[mshootnit]

I love that the title says "gonna start a war" and then I immediately see 5 pages of discussion! Nothing like calling your own shot!
30-06 is a hell of a cartridge and is neck and shoulder above the 308.

 

[FlyinBryan]

I love that the title says "gonna start a war" and then I immediately see 5 pages of discussion! Nothing like calling your own shot!

lol, nice observation now that you mention it.

i actually learn more when i argue a point that im wrong about. it makes me a better argue-er (sp?) in the future. one of these days i will be untouchable!

 

[FlyinBryan]

these guys would be valuable members here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTl9zYS3_dc

 

[Kachok]

lol, nice observation now that you mention it.

i actually learn more when i argue a point that im wrong about. it makes me a better argue-er (sp?) in the future. one of these days i will be untouchable!

Too true, I leaned alot being on the wrong end of several debates, but nowadays not many can hold their own aginst me I don't even have a horse in this race, I got rid of my last 308 a couple years ago, my little 6.5x55 simply outshines it for every species of game we have around here. Deer, yotes, hogs....it puts them all to sleep with half the recoil, flatter trajectory and alot less the noise.

 

[d2wing]

308 and 30-06 are like brothers in th old army.

 

[FlyinBryan]

my little 6.5x55 simply outshines it for every species of game we have around here. Deer, yotes, hogs....it puts them all to sleep with half the recoil, flatter trajectory and alot less the noise.

no, its only good for paper. ive read that it cant kill hogs or deer. you need another 1.12mm to kill those completely.

 

[Kachok]

no, its only good for paper. ive read that it cant kill hogs or deer. you need another 1.12mm to kill those completely.

LOL don't tell that to the meat in my freezer, would not want them to wake up on me I have to side with Chuck Hawks on this one, if there ever were such a thing as a perfect deer rifle it would be either a 6.5x55 or a 7mm-08. You simply don't need 308 or 30-06 power for deer.

 

[Murphy4570]

Sure there is, it is calld BOOST! ever seen those little 1.5L turbocharged racing engines pushing 1,500+hp. For the 70-80fps difference between the 06 and 308 (150-165gr) at max load I would go 308 in an instant due to the dramatic reduction in powder burnt. If I were hunting brown bear with a 30 cal I would want 220-240gr bullets which is 06 territory only.

Ever see a Top Fuel V8 pump out 8,000-10,000+ HP? You can boost big displacement engines too, you know. Different outcomes when you look at torque and the power curve between itty bitty four bangers and V8s too.

As for the 30-06, I own a M1903, and have a M1917 on layaway. I guess that shows which camp I'm in on this debate, eh? The 7.62 NATO round is OK and all, but its service life is mostly in GPMG and HMG duties. Battle rifles chambered in it are horrendously expensive, such as the M14 and the FN-FAL.

 

[FlyinBryan]

LOL don't tell that to the meat in my freezer

i suppose it's possible they were already sick when you shot those ones?

i'm trying to be the last one before the lock because thats how these threads are officially decided, oh nevermind, i concede

my "they were already sick" was too much even for me

 

[Kachok]

The little 6.5 sweed has been putting down game much larger then deer over the last 120 years, it is regularly used for moose and elk in Europe, has been used with great sucess for polor bear in the frozen tundra, and it's little brother the 6.5x54 has been used in Africa to harvest many an elephant, I don't think whitetail deer and feral hogs is pushing it's abilities at all

 

[FlyinBryan]

6.5x54 for elephants? so then 308 OR 30-06 could take down elephants i would guess?

 

[Kachok]

6.5x54 for elephants? so then 308 OR 30-06 could take down elephants i would guess?

I would not care to try it with the 308 because it does not like the ultra high SD bullets required to penatrate an elephants skull (though the 06 has done it before), remember the 6.5x55 and 54 both were designed to use a 160gr bullet, that is about the same SD as a 220gr .30cal. That is the reason they penatrate so darn well. Even using 120 and 140gr I have never recoverd a bullet, 100% through and throughs.

 

[FlyinBryan]

what is the twist of that 6.5? 1-9 - 1-10ish? you've tweaked my curiousity.

 

[Kachok]

what is the twist of that 6.5? 1-9 - 1-10ish? you've tweaked my curiousity.

Mine is a 1:8 twist, that will stabalize any 6.5mm projectile you could throw at it, some people like the 1:9s for up to140gr. I have yet to find a use for the 160gr javlins, but I like knowing I can use them in case we have an outbreak of 800lbs rabid hogs. The 140gr Burger VLD has the highest BC of any hunting bullet in the small caliber world, an astonishing .612 BC!! Even flat base soft points like the Nosler Partition have BC in the range of .490, you won't get that from a 180gr-200gr .30 cal

 

[Prosser]

I love em, and have owned and shot both.
30-06 is never army surplus, or at least that I can find(darn, haven't tried CMP lately) and it's the same with .308.

Buy Russian. 7.62 X54R is equal to both and when's the last time you bought .308 for 440 rounds, for 80 dollars????

 

[Gtscotty]

Buy Russian. 7.62 X54R is equal to both and when's the last time you bought .308 for 440 rounds, for 80 dollars????

Its not really the equal to either, 180gr at 2600 fps tops... out of a 28 inch barrel. both the '06 and the .308 will beat that handily out of a substantially shorter barrel... if you expect a 40-50 fps loss for every inch less of barrel (a wag I know) then the same 7.62x54 load would be pushed hard to crest 2400 fps out of a 24 inch barrel.

But the biggest drawback to buying all of that cheap 7.62x54R is that you're stuck shooting it out of either, one of those old communist plows (mosin), or a relatively expensive semi (SVD, etc.).

I reckon I'd rather buy a modern rifle designed with ergonomics in mind, and chambered in a cartridge that hasn't been thoroughly outclassed for over a hundred years. Will it be more expensive? probably. Will I shoot it less? maybe. Will my dollars be invested in a wholly better product? Definitely. Everybody should have a couple .22s for volume fire/plinking anyway.