Good 9mm loading manual
- Thread starter Professor Gascan
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ArchAngelCD
Member.
I didn't buy a chrono until about 7/8 years ago or so. I gotta good deal on a PACT Model 1XP so I bought it. Back then the Retail price was $129 and I paid $109 on sale with free shipping. Nowadays the site and Retail price are still the same.
I like the fact the chrono itself sits on the bench next to you while only the sensors are in harms way. Replacing the sensors costs a lot less than buying a new chrono. (don't ask how I know
)
It has no bells and whistles. It doesn't talk to your smart phone. It doesn't have a printer. It is however very reliable and accurate. I tested it against a very high end system and the average differences were insignificant.
If you want a good chronograph it's worth buying, if you want all the bells and whistles you should look elsewhere.
I like the fact the chrono itself sits on the bench next to you while only the sensors are in harms way. Replacing the sensors costs a lot less than buying a new chrono. (don't ask how I know
)It has no bells and whistles. It doesn't talk to your smart phone. It doesn't have a printer. It is however very reliable and accurate. I tested it against a very high end system and the average differences were insignificant.
If you want a good chronograph it's worth buying, if you want all the bells and whistles you should look elsewhere.
Fine Figure of a Man
Member
Manuals are great for learning the all the steps to making good accurate and safe ammo.
Load data in the internet age is easy to find and constantly updated on manufactures web sites and others like Handloads.com, reloaders nest and many more.
Hodgden and Vihtavuori's sites are very easy to use.
Safety is always in the hands of the individual. Always cross check data from more than one source.
Load data in the internet age is easy to find and constantly updated on manufactures web sites and others like Handloads.com, reloaders nest and many more.
Hodgden and Vihtavuori's sites are very easy to use.
Safety is always in the hands of the individual. Always cross check data from more than one source.
CrankyCraig
Member
Definitely pick up a few
luzyfuerza
Member
There is no doubt that shooters have been creating perfectly safe and serviceable ammunition without chronographs for many years. Starting with an initial powder charge that is lower than a published load and then working your way up, and then repeating this each time a major variable is changed (e.g. powder age or lot, OAL, bullet brand or type, etc.) is a time-tested method of preventing KABOOMS. It's a fundamental procedure. That being said, is this "working up a load" procedure all there is to reloading? Nah.
I never work up a load without shooting the results over my chronograph. Here are some reasons:
1) Symptoms of overpressure like "excessive recoil/noise" or "case pressure signs" (particularly in 9mm lugar which is the focus of this thread) are quite subjective, perhaps sometimes too subjective to be reliable bases for determining that a load is "too hot". However, a velocity reading that is significantly higher than the book value is very concrete evidence that the reloader should go back and look for something that he did wrong. This is a much more definitive GO/NO-GO kind of result.
2) Comparing velocity produced by known components in laboratory conditions and published by reputable sources to my homemade loads tells me something about the effect of switching components or configuration from lab conditions. For example, if I want to switch bullets (115 grain Winchester FMJ vs Xtreme CPRNs, for example), holding everything else constant, the velocity gives me some indication about whether that change, within the bounds I'm testing, puts me closer to a KABOOM! If there is no or minimal variation in velocity, then that's a good confirmation that that variable change (and only that change) probably did not lead to a dangerous condition. We all are forced to make these swaps regularly, since no data set is all inclusive. Without a chronograph, we are reduced to relying on generalities when we make these changes. An example: "for copper-plated bullets, use load data between lead and FMJ projectiles of similar weights." Generalities provide interesting information, but are not really conclusive.
3) Beyond avoiding KABOOMs, though, using a chronograph can provide insight into the effects on internal ballistics of changing other variables. I have tested how velocity is affected by changes in OAL, barrel length, silencer use, ammo temperatures, age and lot of particular canister powders, results using military pull-down powders, small variations in powder charge, various case headstamps, etc. This data provides information about the internal ballistics of a particular load/gun combination. Of course, "Studying internal ballistics is all about accuracy". https://www.hornady.com/team-hornady/ballistic-calculators/ballistic-resources/internal-ballistics
This data is specific to my guns in my environmental conditions using my components at distances that I generally shoot. No manual (or, frankly, any internet community) can provide that insight. I have learned a great deal from that work.
Since I shoot for groups at the same time as I chronograph, then I simultaneously gain insight into how tweaking these variables affects accuracy.
Based on these experiences, I have a hard time understanding why so many comments stated or inferred that newbies shouldn't include a chronograph in their reloading toolset! It's one thing to say that a chronograph isn't necessary (which is true), and quite another to say that having a chronograph is a really bad idea.
Do we all assume that new reloaders are not smart enough
or too inexperienced
to learn from the data provided by a chronograph? Remember, this is a journey for all of us. Why do so many state unequivocally that a really useful piece of information should be kept unavailable from new reloaders?
I never work up a load without shooting the results over my chronograph. Here are some reasons:
1) Symptoms of overpressure like "excessive recoil/noise" or "case pressure signs" (particularly in 9mm lugar which is the focus of this thread) are quite subjective, perhaps sometimes too subjective to be reliable bases for determining that a load is "too hot". However, a velocity reading that is significantly higher than the book value is very concrete evidence that the reloader should go back and look for something that he did wrong. This is a much more definitive GO/NO-GO kind of result.
2) Comparing velocity produced by known components in laboratory conditions and published by reputable sources to my homemade loads tells me something about the effect of switching components or configuration from lab conditions. For example, if I want to switch bullets (115 grain Winchester FMJ vs Xtreme CPRNs, for example), holding everything else constant, the velocity gives me some indication about whether that change, within the bounds I'm testing, puts me closer to a KABOOM! If there is no or minimal variation in velocity, then that's a good confirmation that that variable change (and only that change) probably did not lead to a dangerous condition. We all are forced to make these swaps regularly, since no data set is all inclusive. Without a chronograph, we are reduced to relying on generalities when we make these changes. An example: "for copper-plated bullets, use load data between lead and FMJ projectiles of similar weights." Generalities provide interesting information, but are not really conclusive.
3) Beyond avoiding KABOOMs, though, using a chronograph can provide insight into the effects on internal ballistics of changing other variables. I have tested how velocity is affected by changes in OAL, barrel length, silencer use, ammo temperatures, age and lot of particular canister powders, results using military pull-down powders, small variations in powder charge, various case headstamps, etc. This data provides information about the internal ballistics of a particular load/gun combination. Of course, "Studying internal ballistics is all about accuracy". https://www.hornady.com/team-hornady/ballistic-calculators/ballistic-resources/internal-ballistics
This data is specific to my guns in my environmental conditions using my components at distances that I generally shoot. No manual (or, frankly, any internet community) can provide that insight. I have learned a great deal from that work.
Since I shoot for groups at the same time as I chronograph, then I simultaneously gain insight into how tweaking these variables affects accuracy.
Based on these experiences, I have a hard time understanding why so many comments stated or inferred that newbies shouldn't include a chronograph in their reloading toolset! It's one thing to say that a chronograph isn't necessary (which is true), and quite another to say that having a chronograph is a really bad idea.
Do we all assume that new reloaders are not smart enough
or too inexperienced
to learn from the data provided by a chronograph? Remember, this is a journey for all of us. Why do so many state unequivocally that a really useful piece of information should be kept unavailable from new reloaders?
LiveLife
Member
Because for decades, reloaders have been able to produce safe and accurate loads without the use of chrono. For newbies, extra tools like tumblers are added expense (especially for those on a budget) and while nice to have, not essential for producing safe and accurate loads.
While internal water volume sorting, neck turning and annealing are very useful, newbies to rifle cartridge reloading typically don't start out with them. As they master the basics of reloading rifle cartridges, they will venture into more advanced reloading techniques.
I am not saying new reloaders should never use chrono for their load development. What I posted is that chrono is not necessary for a new reloader to produce safe and accurate rounds. Should chrono and other reloading tools be considered as their reloading abilities improve? Absolutely.
Hokie_PhD
Member
I never said a chrono should be kept from a new reloader. I can't speak for bds but I didn't see him say that either. We were arguing against the comment that a chrono was a must have safety item for reloading. I then expanded on that and said I felt with everything else being purchased and learned that it wasn't a top priority.
I felt by learning basic safe practices and staying in known loads one could be safe. Hence no NEED for a chrono. I also said they're a useful tool. I even mentioned one is on my list of items that I'd like to add soon,
Remember, most people start reloading to save money. And many are interested on getting started on a budget. Adding a chrono, even a fairly inexpensive is a decent size expense. So many wouldn't start if it was a MUST HAVE.
I'd never say, that someone who wants to buy one shouldn't one. But I would suggest they take the time to learn what the data they collect from it means. But I would again suggest they start with conservative loads and "be safe" before they try more advanced things such as pushing for more velocity.
I felt by learning basic safe practices and staying in known loads one could be safe. Hence no NEED for a chrono. I also said they're a useful tool. I even mentioned one is on my list of items that I'd like to add soon,
Remember, most people start reloading to save money. And many are interested on getting started on a budget. Adding a chrono, even a fairly inexpensive is a decent size expense. So many wouldn't start if it was a MUST HAVE.
I'd never say, that someone who wants to buy one shouldn't one. But I would suggest they take the time to learn what the data they collect from it means. But I would again suggest they start with conservative loads and "be safe" before they try more advanced things such as pushing for more velocity.
Hokie_PhD
Member
bds looks like you again beat me to the reply and said things much more concise than I.
I'm not sure why so many here don't remember what it was like to be a beginner. OP is doing things right. Asking questions, getting tools and books and we don't need to discourage him by suggesting that if they don't have unnecessary tools they'd be unsafe. I guess that's why I'm glad you're arguing the same thing as me that a good basic setup, good manuals and learning the basics are the way to be safe and be a life long reloader!
I'm not sure why so many here don't remember what it was like to be a beginner. OP is doing things right. Asking questions, getting tools and books and we don't need to discourage him by suggesting that if they don't have unnecessary tools they'd be unsafe. I guess that's why I'm glad you're arguing the same thing as me that a good basic setup, good manuals and learning the basics are the way to be safe and be a life long reloader!
Like many reloaders, especially those of us who started back when the only chronos were expensive (And I was young and poorish), I reloaded for years without a chrono. I was conservative in my charge weights and used accuracy as my guide. I depended a lot on my Speer manual, which we know now some of the old ones had some hot data in.
I finally got a chrono about 10 years ago and besides having a lot of fun using it it has been a good tool to help decide if I was approaching being to hot.
There is no free lunch and if you are getting significantly more velocity than manuals are, something is amiss.
Do you have to have one? Of course not. Are they fun to play with? Sure are. Can they predict accurate loads for you by the numbers? Heck no.
Are they a very useful tool? Sure are. Can they help you be safe? Sure can.
I finally got a chrono about 10 years ago and besides having a lot of fun using it it has been a good tool to help decide if I was approaching being to hot.
There is no free lunch and if you are getting significantly more velocity than manuals are, something is amiss.
Do you have to have one? Of course not. Are they fun to play with? Sure are. Can they predict accurate loads for you by the numbers? Heck no.
Are they a very useful tool? Sure are. Can they help you be safe? Sure can.
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