BridgeTooFar
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http://www.midlandsconnect.com/news/story.aspx?id=645258#.TjmOJWEfc9x
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Good lesson for those that purchase used at pawn shops
- Thread starter BridgeTooFar
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USAF_Vet
Member
.9mm? Talk about an underpowered round
Bubbles
Member
Please note that while pawn shops are required to use systems like "LeadsOnline", most gun dealers are not.
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
Actually, this isn't a good lesson at all and is an exception to the norm. All firearms passing through a pawn shop (along with other merchandise) do get checked out by the cops via model and serial numbers, at least in most of the states including South Carolina where this occurred.
If the gun came from a legit pawn shop, then a mistake was made and the stolen gun not caught by the cops. Maybe somebody transposed a number on the ticket or it just got missed somehow. Mistakes do happen and they can happen anywhere.
If the gun went through a pawn shop operating illegally, then that is a problem that could happen when dealing with ANY business and is not just a pawn issue.
Note that this differs greatly than buying from individuals and from non-ffl vendors at gun shows whose guns have not gone through a vetting process.
If the gun came from a legit pawn shop, then a mistake was made and the stolen gun not caught by the cops. Maybe somebody transposed a number on the ticket or it just got missed somehow. Mistakes do happen and they can happen anywhere.
If the gun went through a pawn shop operating illegally, then that is a problem that could happen when dealing with ANY business and is not just a pawn issue.
Note that this differs greatly than buying from individuals and from non-ffl vendors at gun shows whose guns have not gone through a vetting process.
BridgeTooFar
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The good lesson I was referring to was not that pawn shops are shady, but rather that you should keep your receipt on you if you're carrying a used weapon concealed.
hermannr
Member
I would trust my local pawn shop over anyone else with an FFL for a used gun purchase. If he sold a gun that was stolen (here in WA) it would be very difficult for him to stay in business....Because of the state laws and liability.
dogtown tom
Member
No firearms dealer anywhere in the USA has the ability to check NCIC (the only national database of stolen firearms) to see if a used gun was stolen.
What laws in WA would force a dealer out of business?
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
REALLY? That is NOT what came across by your thread title or the fact that you mentioned absolutely nothing in your post about keeping any receipts. You specifically said it was lesson about buying used guns from pawn shops which sounds like you are making a warning about buying used guns at pawn shops.
Nushif
Member
Wait. What?
I have to carry a license that proves I am allowed to carry a handgun, then I have to carry a form of ID to validate said license and then I should also carry a receipt that my handgun was bought? While carrying a license to operate a vehicle, proof that I own the vehicle and proof that the vehicle is ensured?
Is this sounding silly to anyone else yet?
I understand that in this case that document might have been useful, but I am not sold that the practice of carrying a receipt for a handgun isn't close to carrying a certificate of live birth to prove to a cop that you are indeed not run away from a morgue.
Snowbandit
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Being pulled over for a traffic stop alone does not give the cop probable cause to "search" the serial number just because the driver has a gun. Unless the driver gave permission, waived his right to a search warrant, the arrest was the result of an illegal search. The arrest that followed would also have been unlawful.
As to purchasing a stolen gun from a pawn shop unknowingly and later getting arrested for it, the driver absolutely has a civil case against the shop. He's likely to be the new owner of the place.
As to purchasing a stolen gun from a pawn shop unknowingly and later getting arrested for it, the driver absolutely has a civil case against the shop. He's likely to be the new owner of the place.
possum
Member
How long would it be before that receipt would be torn up and un readable by having "with you"? I would take my chances, explain if the police ask, and worse case scenario I take a trip to the station. It will get sorted out. Yeah it sucks, however I don't think a receipt is going to save you if they think that it is a stolen gun anyway. A receipt is easy to fake. I am not much for lawsuits but that is a very good possibility if he wants to push it far enough.
A bud of mine was caught speeding in Alabama. He was coming home from a Highpower Match. And he left his concealed carry permit and car insurance home.
He had a handgun in the car. He told the Cop about the handgun. That started the game of vehicle inspection. If he had his concealed carry permit everything probably would have been OK.
When the Cop opened his rifle case, the one containing his NM AR15, the Cop actually gasped and jumped back. The Cop ran a serial number check on the AR15 target rifle. This shows how bright cops can be, he ran the "numbers". The serial number was an alpha numeric serial number, like "ST4112A5". The cop called in 41125. There were seven stolen guns with the serial number 41125.
Speeding, no car insurance, no carry permit, stolen gun, bud went to jail for the night.
You can carry all the paperwork in the world, but if the arresting officer is not happy with you, or is denser than a stump of wood, you are going to pay a lawyer to explain your case to a Judge. After someone pays your bail to get you out of jail.
He had a handgun in the car. He told the Cop about the handgun. That started the game of vehicle inspection. If he had his concealed carry permit everything probably would have been OK.
When the Cop opened his rifle case, the one containing his NM AR15, the Cop actually gasped and jumped back. The Cop ran a serial number check on the AR15 target rifle. This shows how bright cops can be, he ran the "numbers". The serial number was an alpha numeric serial number, like "ST4112A5". The cop called in 41125. There were seven stolen guns with the serial number 41125.
Speeding, no car insurance, no carry permit, stolen gun, bud went to jail for the night.
You can carry all the paperwork in the world, but if the arresting officer is not happy with you, or is denser than a stump of wood, you are going to pay a lawyer to explain your case to a Judge. After someone pays your bail to get you out of jail.
dogtown tom
Member
Doubtful.
Name one instance where the legal sale of a stolen gun resulted in a civil judgement against a pawn shop (or any dealer).
Many states even have laws that allow the pawn shop a measure of protection.
oneounceload
member
Invite the cop to your home and show him a receipt - if you have one. Many folks buy guns FTF with no paperwork. This paranoia of having to have proof of everything is a little over the top
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
Nope, not unless he can prove that the seller knowingly sold him a stolen gun. The seller may very well be a victim as much as the buyer. For that matter, you don't even know if the gun was reported stolen at the time that it passed through the pawn shop.
Even if he does manage to file a suit and even if he could win, he would not likely be the new owner of the shop. That isn't how it works. That is one of those silly threats people make like when they tell the cop writing them a ticket that they will have his job. They may be able to report the cop for some transgression, but they don't get to take the cop's place on the beat.
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
It is quite possible for the occasional encounter with some LEO who graduated from the Waybelownormal School for the Intellectually Challenged. If this is of concern to you, the issues of civil rights and the law are out of the equation. You should therefore be scrupulous insofar as having any and all pertinent paperwork with you. And, possibly, a lawyer and a bail bondsman on speed-dial.
Otherwise, just amble along doing the best you can with whatever common sense you have, while realizing that life has its little moments of oh-crap.
Otherwise, just amble along doing the best you can with whatever common sense you have, while realizing that life has its little moments of oh-crap.
BridgeTooFar
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Didn't mean to offend the used gun buyers of the world or the pawn shop gun buyers of the world (both of who's ranks, I am one).
In this situation, the guy has absolutely no case against the shop or the cops under SC law above and beyond the return of what he paid. Also, depending on the specific facts of the traffic stop (of which, we have scant information on from the article), it could have been a perfectly legal "search" (if it is deemed a search at all over and above a normal Terry stop).
All I meant to say was that it's prudent to carry at least a copy of your receipt with you if you choose to carry a gun purchased used if you can. If you don't, you risk at least a night in jail and all possible repercussions that might come with that. If you choose not to air on the side of caution, more power to you, but dont complain about some supposed "violation of your civil rights" when something similar happens.
Maybe the receipt wouldn't have saved this guy a night in jail, maybe it would have. We'll never know because he didn't have it with him, but I, for one, would have it with me in that situation to give myself a fighting chance at sleeping in my own bed that night.
In this situation, the guy has absolutely no case against the shop or the cops under SC law above and beyond the return of what he paid. Also, depending on the specific facts of the traffic stop (of which, we have scant information on from the article), it could have been a perfectly legal "search" (if it is deemed a search at all over and above a normal Terry stop).
All I meant to say was that it's prudent to carry at least a copy of your receipt with you if you choose to carry a gun purchased used if you can. If you don't, you risk at least a night in jail and all possible repercussions that might come with that. If you choose not to air on the side of caution, more power to you, but dont complain about some supposed "violation of your civil rights" when something similar happens.
Maybe the receipt wouldn't have saved this guy a night in jail, maybe it would have. We'll never know because he didn't have it with him, but I, for one, would have it with me in that situation to give myself a fighting chance at sleeping in my own bed that night.
NavyLCDR
member
TDooley57 said:
Please tell me you are kidding, right? Why not carry receipts of new firearms as well? Someone can report any serial number as stolen, or there could be a mistake when entering the real serial number in the system. Or the cop may want to verify that you obtained the firearm via a legitimate source. Also probably a good idea to wipe the gun down completely with alcohol when you buy it to remove fingerprints and DNA residue. Maybe take a scribe and put a scratch in the chamber so that it won't match previously fired round casings that may be found at a crime scene too.
TDooley57 said:
Oh, I guess you weren't kidding.
For the record, I was.I agree. It's not practical to carry the receipt around for every handgun I've ever owned. Although it's unconstitutional that my state requires handguns to be transferred by dealers, at least it gives insurance that there's a paper trail to back me up if something like this should happen.
Deltaboy1984
Member
The LEO looks to have screwed up unless the man didn't exercise his Rights.
shiftyer1
Member
I didn't watch the video due to slooooow internet so i'm curious why the cop was running numbers on a legally carried gun in the process of a traffic stop in the first place? Or is something left out of the story?
[1] If someone is found in possession of a gun reported stolen, he'll have some explaining to do. That will be unavoidable.
[2] His story, of course, would be that he bought the gun in good faith with no reason to suspect that the gun was stolen. A bill of sale, receipt or other documentation of the transaction will help support that story and make it easier to sort things out. That would be the case whether it was a dealer transfer or private transaction. Bit I don't see any reason to carry the documentation with you. Sorting things our will probably take a little time.
[3] You will lose the gun, because you can't acquire the ownership of something that's been stolen.
[4] If you bought the gun from a dealer, you will probably be able to get your money back. If you bought the gun from a private party, you will first need to be able to find him; and then he might, or might not, be cooperative and give you your money back.
[5] Unless you can prove that the seller knew the gun was stolen, getting your money back is pretty much the best you could hope for.
[2] His story, of course, would be that he bought the gun in good faith with no reason to suspect that the gun was stolen. A bill of sale, receipt or other documentation of the transaction will help support that story and make it easier to sort things out. That would be the case whether it was a dealer transfer or private transaction. Bit I don't see any reason to carry the documentation with you. Sorting things our will probably take a little time.
[3] You will lose the gun, because you can't acquire the ownership of something that's been stolen.
[4] If you bought the gun from a dealer, you will probably be able to get your money back. If you bought the gun from a private party, you will first need to be able to find him; and then he might, or might not, be cooperative and give you your money back.
[5] Unless you can prove that the seller knew the gun was stolen, getting your money back is pretty much the best you could hope for.
oneounceload
member
And how is that? Please share where the Constitution says transfers by dealers aren't allowed.
Carrying receipts is, IMO, a little silly
I see no special need to carry a receipt. The license alone says the owner has been checked out, but of course that does not exclude the possibility of a stolen weapon. Yes, I thiink a LEO is justified in running a check on a gun being carried even if the owner is licensed.
One point to remember, though. With many firearms, a serial number does not provide a unique identification. For example, with a German Luger, the serial number, any suffix letter, the date of manufacture, and the manufacturer must ALL be provided for the gun to be uniquely identified. If a receipt or registration record shows only the numbers, there is a good possibility of an error and an erroneous arrest.
Jim
One point to remember, though. With many firearms, a serial number does not provide a unique identification. For example, with a German Luger, the serial number, any suffix letter, the date of manufacture, and the manufacturer must ALL be provided for the gun to be uniquely identified. If a receipt or registration record shows only the numbers, there is a good possibility of an error and an erroneous arrest.
Jim
Hypnogator
Member
FWIW, back in the day, I was in charge of the Crimes Against Property section of the Ft. Lewis CID. It was more-or-less routine for pawn shops to transpose or incorrectly record serial numbers to protect their "sources." How could you prove that they didn't misread 5 for 6? I would always be very suspicious of any used firearm in a pawn shop's inventory.
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