Good Shooting

[jwxspoon]

In traveling across the internet I see lots of forum threads about what can and can't be done, and what skills are 'good' or 'adequate'. It got me to thinking about what I consider to be good shooting for me.

A little background, I am ex Army and my Dad was an FBI agent. I've been shooting since I was a little kid and I shoot now more than I did in the Army. I do not consider myself an expert by any means. I did shoot 'expert' in the Army but I don't really consider that expert shooting.

So a few points in no particular order about my opinions and expectations of 'Good Shooting'

1. With a compact or subcompact handgun, I want to place 80-90% of my shots into a palm sized area at 15-20 feet with relatively rapid shooting from a holstered position. I expect to be able to make an aimed head shot at the same distance.

2. With a full sized handgun I expect the same results but at a longer distance, at least 50 feet or more.

3. With a shotgun slug I should be accurate to man-sized center of mass out to 100 meters.

4. With a standard milsurp rifle I should be able to consistently hit a man-sized target over open sights out to 300-350 meters. I did this often enough with my CAR-15 in the Army, I know it's not too hard to do.

5. I should be able to field strip all of my regularly shot weapons without referring to a written manual.

I'm sure I will get flamed a bit for low expectations from some internet cowboy. But this is coming from my expectations as a 2nd Ranger BN, 1-325 PIR, and 7th SFG vet. i'm sure some of the guys here have much more extensive training.

jw

 

[Biker]

That's fair shooting, but I'm not sure what you mean by "shooting from a holstered position".

Biker

 

[xsquidgator]

Interesting points. Of course I feel better because I can kind of do a lot of the things on your list, at least out to 100 yds anyway.

I did some security stuff in the Navy (like 15 years ago) and was disappointed in the firearms experience (lack of it, really). "Good enough" for nuc weapons security was pretty pathetic I thought, for instance qualifying with a 45 meant just putting 20 of 30 rounds into a man-sized target at 20 feet or so, and qualifying with a 12 gauge meant putting a couple of rounds into the same man sized target at about the same distance. Most of the (submarine) sailors I knew could do that, but were terribly terribly clueless and unfamiliar with their weapons. Fortunately we were well-protected by a company or so of marines when in port, and we didn't face the kind threats that small arms would help with anyway.
I grew up shooting guns (maybe not well but at least I was comfortable with carrying them safely and working on them, cleaning etc). Unfortunately the service didn't teach me anything much about small arms and I'm still curious as to what "good enough" shooting is. Most of what I've learned recently comes from one on one sessions with fellow range members who are retired law enforcement. Thanks for posting your list, I like having specifics to work on.

 

[jwxspoon]

Biker- by holstered position I mean standing with my weapon holstered. I want to be able to draw and shoot quickly and effectively from this position with the stated results.

There is also GREAT shooting, which I have often observed. I will comment on that later.

jw

 

[Biker]

Gotcha. I thought you meant shooting from the hip -
wasn't sure.

Biker

 

[siglite]

Shot placement's everything, and shooting tiny groups is impressive. But you've got to balance that accuracy with speed. Because in a SHTF situation, it's likely the speed that'll save your butt, not your ability to hit a fly at 300m from the offhand.

I've seen guys with sub 1 second split times, out of the holster and getting a COM hit at 21 feet. They can move laterally while doing it, which places the attacker in reaction mode. I see a real divergence when talking about shooting skill. There's precision, and then there's combat effective. I think to be good at either, you have to practice both. But when it comes down to brass tacks, it'll be your ability to quickly get rounds on target, from your concealment rig that'll really matter.

 

[hankdatank1362]

Get your hits, and get 'em quick. COM of a human is a relatively large area, so 1" groups shooting at a snail's pace at 25 yards don't impress me.

Keeping all your shots in a pie-plate sized circle at 15-25 yards firing 2 shots per second is much more impressive.


PS: I live in Myrtle Beach, too. (Little River, actually) Where do you like to shoot?

 

[Grizzly Adams]

jwxspoon, interesting list. I've never really verbalized or put it down on paper that way but now that you have got me to thinking about it I would have to say that I agree with you. Shots in the kill zone are what matter, not where in the kill zone! At one time I could qualify using your criteria but as I have gotten older and as my eye sight isn't what it used to be, I don't know that I can still make the longer shots!

 

[jwxspoon]

PS: I live in Myrtle Beach, too. (Little River, actually) Where do you like to shoot?

I shoot some at Myrtle Beach indoor shooting range, but honestly I hate dealing with those guys. Give a 20-something kid $10 an hour and let him wear a gun at work as a gun shop employee and you get some amazingly pompous attitudes. I used to go there weekly but last time I had a problem with a young employee there that grabbed my range bag without asking and began to paw through it, looking for reloads I guess. I decided at that point to shoot elsewhere as much as possible.

There are 2 private ranges I shoot at in Aynor, much more satisfying and usually empty. My son has a great outdoor range at his home in Fayetteville, NC and there is a decent public range about an hour south of MB (Twin Ponds).

 

[Slugless]

jwx,

What are your expectations for shooting offhand with a military-type rifle?

 

[jwxspoon]

Well if I am shooting over 150 meters I am probably going to be prone or at least supported, so for me I would envision a brush gun shot at 100-150. I'd want to hit a stationary target pretty much every time from that distance.

There's so much that goes into long distance rifle shooting though, I am absolutely no expert. I've seen some guys that are absolutely amazing with their offhand shooting, as good or better offhand than I am prone. But as we all know the key to good shooting is practice practice and more practice.

When I was a young single SSG in 7th group my roommate was in Delta. He'd bring home these freaking gallon ziplock bags of 9mm hardball for us to shoot with, and he was uncanny in his CQB skills with a pistol, shooting on the move, etc. I have never seen anyone as good, but he would tell me he was just 'good' compared to some of the other guys. I do know it took him many thousands of rounds of regular shooting to maintain those skills.

jw

 

[AZAndy]

These are interesting goals, with the possible exception of the field-stripping one-- spend enough time with a particular gun, and that won't be a problem, I'm thinking.

As far as pistol-work goes (which I know isn't all that far), I've had a lot of fun learning from my shot timer. I'm finally getting that first shot (drawing from beneath a cover garment) down to a point I can live with-- about a second, with followups running in the .15-.20 range. (M1911 work.) I could never have gotten there without actually using a timer, to be sure. I heartily recommend one to you!

As an aside, working with shot timers can save a lot of ammo costs for a while-- 100 rounds lasts a good while if you're timing the draw/fire.

Like the big-name pros always say, having measurable goals is important. One starts to learn interesting things about one's shortcomings once measurements come into the picture. Yes, still talking about guns and shooting here, you buncha wiseacres.

A.

 

[M2 Carbine]

I agree with the above.
A timer is a good tool and like shooting paper, the results are in plain view.


I used to be a good shot.
Now at 70, with a less than steady hand, slower reflexes, and wearing tri-focals, I'd say my shooting is just decent now days.

For example.

Makarov, single shots, drawing from my carry holster.


Kimber Covert II. Single shots.


Rossi. 5 shots ASAP.


Crimson Trace Laser on J Frame.


This is fun.


Plinking with Kimber at 100 yards. Also fun shooting.