Got an old hunting dog.... how do I retrain him?

[RoostRider]

I have a 6 year old pure bred Black Lab that I am taking care of for my buddy while he serves another tour in Iraq. He would be glad if I would take the dog out hunting, and I would be glad if he would help.

This dog was taken as a pup and trained for birds.... I don't know much about how, aside from a shock collar with a tone was used and is considered his "hunting" collar....

The owner almost never took the training any further than the school he went to... he was trained with this collar and some sort of dummy.... I don't think he was ever actually hunted... except perhaps practice birds in camp...

This dog is great in most ways, aside from slobber... he has a lot of energy, he quickly goes into command mode and will heel perfectly on your left side, he will sit, and even stay if you show him you mean business when tossing his ball.... he LOVES to retrieve and will bring the ball back gently and drop it in your hand or on the ground, he chases small animals but usually obeys if you holler for him to come back (he gets off on a tangent now and again, and is hard to get back)

The owner told me a couple of commands for him and said he would get me his "hunting collar" and training dummy before he left, but things got ahead of him and it didn't happen.

I took him to the water and he was right at home playing fetch even in deep water.

I took him to the woods and he would stick by my side in heel mode until I said "hunt 'em up" (one of his commands), then he seemed to tear willy nilly thought the woods around me, getting further out (sometimes too far out).... but he would 'usually' return upon the "heel" command... but not always...

I called the people who trained him, an outfit called Online Retrievers in Minnesota, I only mention the name because maybe someone is familiar with their training techniques.... They told me not to put the collar back on him (good thing he didn't get me it).... they said he may have retained his training, or he may just get wild if I used the shock function, or even just be confused by the tone.... they didn't/wouldn't/couldn't tell me his commands and what I should do aside from consider sending him back for retraining and they would get him back in shape.... they were polite and nice, but I think they were afraid to tell me because they didn't want me screwing up the dog... especially with a shock collar...

What I want to know is how I can best retrain him for hunting birds (grouse and pheasant in particular) on my own..... I don't have big bucks to lay out on training someone elses dog...

Are there common commands he should know still? He does Heel, Sit, Stay, Hunt 'em up, Go get it, Lay down, Go!..... and he might even know "out" while hunting, but that might just be tone related..

Is it best to try to retrain him the way he was trained originally?

Should I get a dummy? What kind? How do I use it?

Should I shoot around him? Shoot and toss the dummy?

Should I use dead/live birds for training at all?

How should he be behaving? Should he have retained most of his teaching despite the lack of use?

In particular, how can I keep him closer to me if he gets out too far?
He seems to cover a lot of ground in a search like pattern, great for grouse, but he certainly doesn't point.... but he could get birds up that I would never even see...

Is there a good free place to learn all this? If so, would it be harmful to try to teach him a new way?

I want to try to get him up to speed by grouse opener (mid September) if I can.... He is a smart dog, affectionate, and well behaved most of the time, and I don't want to change any of that....

Also, he is a house dog, and he will be staying that way.... and I realize this is not the best for a true hunting dog, but he is more a companion who can hopefully help with the hunting....

I am excited to have a dog for a year, and glad that my friend trusted me to be his guardian for this year... even if he is only marginally helpful hunting.... hopefully he won't be harmful....

So please, help me learn how to have this dog help me out....

Thanks in advance.....

Mods- I know this isn't exactly gun related, but this is the best place I feel comfortable asking about this hunting related question... lock/delete if you see fit...

 

[hogshead]

Ever heard you can't teach an old dog knew tricks.This proably applies here too ,but he may know the tricks already.First off I would tie him and shoot around him proably a 22.Make sure he is not gun shy before you put much effort into hunting him. Next take him out in the woods and get him used to heeling and what commands he knows.Heeling being the most important.Then you can try him over some birds.Find some quail [if legal in your area,if not pigeons maybe].You can grab them by their legs, spin them upside down a couple times to make them sit tight.Set them out of his sight turn him loose hunt him towards them see if he points.If he does great. If not he still could help find downed birds which is very nice.

 

[Bwana John]

Make sure hes OK with gunshots, then just take him hunting.

The first season is kinda tough, but he will know what to do, you just got to go hunting with him.

 

[AirForceShooter]

Take the shock collar off his neck and put it on your's.
Labs are smarter than most prople I know and they love to please.

AFS

 

[Flintknapper]

My advice (for whats its worth) is just to enjoy the dog as he is. There isn't time to get him ready for Grouse season...even if he's been trained before.

1. You don't know to what level the dog was previously trained.

2. You don't say if he was trained for the field (and upland) or is a "water dog" (ducks).

3. You are not an experienced "trainer" and will do the dog a dis-service for lack of knowledge (no offense).


A "professional" would want the dog for 6 months....and then would return it to you as "started" (unless the dog was fully trained before).

You buddy will be back.....before you would have time to put much of a "handle" on the dog. I would simply work (daily for about 10 minutes) on basic obedience, basic field commands and see how he does later (in the field).

Your best bet would be to locate someone that has trained a dog before and have them work with YOU...before you attempt to teach the dog anything (there are lots of do's and dont's).

I am sorry if I sound "discouraging"....but I'm just being realistic.

Just be the dog's "buddy" and take him out a few times and see how he does. Be patient, have fun and take good care of him (he's on loan).

If you want a trained hunting dog of your own, get a "pup", read up on the subject and start from there.

Flint.

 

[RoostRider]

Lets start with saying that I have never put a shock collar on him, and I won't be considering the advice from absolutely everyone. That is how he was trained professionally, and I think the object was that he would learn to follow the tone, and not need to be tagged once he learned.... but he was used to this being his hunting collar, and this is the collar he was supposed to use for hunting, but he never did, so I think the collar idea is a loss.... besides, I'm not spending that kind of money on someone elses dog... not for one season of grouse hunting... and I never liked the idea of a shock collar...

I am taking him to the woods with a gun this weekend and we'll see how he does with that. I'll start with a .22 and work him up just like a good re-load to see if he can handle the shotgun. He isn't afraid of the sight of guns (like some dogs I've known), and I doubt he will fear gunsshots since he doesn't fear fireworks and was trained for guns.

I don't want to 'tweak' his dog by getting him nervous about anything, and I don't want to confuse the dog either (if he doesn't hunt well, oh well, he's still a great dog)

The dog was trained for upland birds and ducks I think....... for sure upland birds.... can I just buy some live birds to work him with? Is that what the one poster is suggesting? At least that would tell if he knows how to hunt I guess.... what would they call a place that sells practice birds (so I can find one near here)

Does anyone know the common commands for making a trained dog go where you want him, and or return to closer to you in his 'search'? Just those couple of commands, if he still understands them, would be super helpful.

I certainly don't take any of these comments as insults (well, with the exception of the comment by AirForceShooter (who happens to have problems with reading comprehension) who thinks I should wear a shock collar just because someone else trained their dog with it).... I am not a trainer, as noted, and I don't even play one on TV. I find most of the input in this thread to be quite useful and well mannered. Thanks.

I have always wanted a trained dog, but getting a pup and training him just isn't in the cards right now... I am leary about just learning how to train a dog and retraining him (see above about tweaking the dog)... but if I ever do get a pup that is what I will do.

Thanks again to everyone except AirForceShooter.... and keep the comments coming if you have any more input.... (even you AirForce, if you have something useful to add)

 

[Kingcreek]

get a hold of the book "Gun Dog" by Gene Wolters. everything you need to know about training a lab. Retrieving is like crack to a lab.

 

[countertop]

I have an e-collar. A tri tronics. Basically though, it never gets used - though when we hunt he wears it (which doesn't mean I have it on). My dogs were trained both with and without it. Used right, its a fabulous tool. Used wrong, you can ruin a dog (and its broderline cruel).

I use it as insurance.

Basically, though, they are a training tool/aid and not the trainer itself.

That said,

I'd start with a whistle and a check cord, and see how well he responds to whistle commands (try a single whistle to sit and/or heel, two blasts for him to pause and look back for direction, and multiple trills to return to you after the retrieve). If he doesn't respond, you can start training him on a whistle while walking him in the neighborhood. Whenever you stop, whistle him to stop and sit. When you turn left or right, whistle him to turn left or right. When he gets out in front, whistle him back to heel). Give him lots of praise.

For the check cord get 30 feet or 50 feet, your choice.

Get him out on dummies. Get him to a hunting preserve and shoot some pigeons over him. And maybe hunt some upland birds there.

As others said, take him hunting, and have fun.

He just might surprise you (but get a whistle - if he was trained professionally, he will almost surely respond to that)

AND I FULLY SUPPORT THE GUN DOG Suggestion. All other books pale in comparison to the Wolters book.

 

[RoostRider]

I took him out this weekend and he did pretty well. Hunting season hasn't started yet, so we just went out and walked in the woods and shot a .22 around him....

First, he heels great, and if you whistle repeatedly, he comes right back (surprise eh countertop?... lol).... he isn't afraid of guns at all....

I thought my friend had said something about whistling, but wasn't sure.....

countertop- what kind of a whistle do you suppose he's trained to? where can I get such a whistle....

The next step will be to train him to that whistle again...

Also, how do you show him direction when you get his attention?

Thanks for all the help guys..... seems like this dog might be a plus when hunting upland birds.... I'm excited and so is the dog (well, actually, all he has done is sleep since we got back last night.... lol)

 

[countertop]

I use a Ray Gonia whistle, but you can pretty much use anyone. One of my buddies has a Gonia super whistle, but for waterfowl and upland, the dog shouldn't ever be so far away from you that you need it (deer dogs, bear dogs, coon dogs, etc are different)

Here's a link to Ugly Dog Hunting. Great outfitter.
LL Bean has 'em,
Amazon has 'em too (Here's the Wolters book, btw)
Cabelas
Bass too

As for direction - usually dogs are trained initially to work off your barrel. When I send me dogs out to retrieve, they will initally be looking up to the sky from my barrell. I then send them out with a strong command and a pointed arm in the right direction.

Getting him to change direction in the field is a bit harder, and will take some work. But generally, he will look back at you for direction. Again, think of your arm as a shotgun and make strong direction signals with it pointing in the direction you want him to go.

Dont expect this to work overnight though. Thats really a level of communication thats going to come after LOTS of practice and time with the dog.

Another option, btw, is to join a local retriever club and work with them (they can get you on birds, etc). I've worked with both the North American Hunting Retriever Association in the past, but more recently have been finding myself working with guys in the local chapter of the North American Versatile Hunting Dog Association (the only reason is its a shorter commute - 30 minutes vs 90 minutes to the game preserve, either is fine for you).

Check both out, see where the local chapter is and call them up. There will be lots of folks with lots of experience there, they can certainly get you out on some birds, and give you lots of guidance and tips.

 

[RoostRider]

wow..... thanks for all the detail and help....

Any reason to go with a 'silent' whistle?... aside from not wanting to make noise in the woods I guess.... are they as good as a regular whistle?

Also, you directed me to Game Dog: The Hunter's Retriever for Upland Birds and Waterfowl - A Concise New Training Method- by Wolters, whereas others suggested Gun Dog: Revolutionary Rapid Training Method- also by Wolters.....

Just a typo, or which one is best for my application.... and/or teaching a new dog? (I have the itch now.... lol)...

in fact, it seems Wolters is prolific in his writing about dog training... 10 or more on Amazon.... some are obviously not for me, but those two both seem to fit...

Thanks again

 

[countertop]

Both are great. I think Game Dog is better is the best book for learning - in a 1, 2 3 manner - how to train a hunting dog. Either will do fine.

I'd go with the loud whistle. The silent ones hurt their ears. I have never used it, but my understanding is that they are used more for behavior modification and not for commands.
A regular whistle doesn't annoy a dog.

 

[rcmodel]

All I ever used through years was a plain old coaches whistle with the cork ball in it.

The best dogs I ever owned or hunted with ran by hand / arm signals.

A blast on the whistle to get thier attention if necessary, and point an arm where you wanted them to go. Then they went.

"Dead Bird" was the only voice command I ever had any use for to put them on a downed bird.

I've hunted with guys who used only voice commands for everything, and by the end of the day, all the yelling, screaming, & hollering had them croaking like a sick frog.

rc

 

[kdstrick]

Take him out, shoot some birds and give him a shot at remembering his training. Odds are the dog will be all over it.

He wants to please you. Retrieving is natural to him, just show him what you want him to retrieve and I'll bet he will surprise you with his enthusiasm for the task. Be patient, and don't be too hard on him... he is going back to school.

BTW... Game dog is the newer book and may be more of what you are looking for. I've read them both and they are very similar. Gun dog takes you through the life of pup training from day 1. Both are great.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

My two cents..., get the books and play "fetch" with the retrieval dummy. Labs will understand one thing from birth, get it and bring it back. They don't care if they get to swim or not..., so they may be trained to get anything you shoot from the sky, not just waterfowl. So upland or even dove will work. (Any fuzzy/feathery bird smelling object is part of the game for the dog eh?) Follow the advice of the gundog books on how to get the dog used to the sounds of gunshots. I know how my dad taught me to do it..., it works, but if you're using a buddy's dog, I'd get the books. Once they figure out the bang is needed for the "bird" to fall, and there's no game until the bang..., man the dog will go bonkers every time you handle the shotgun.

LD

 

[RoostRider]

Hehehehehhehehehee...... I can't wait......

Thanks guys.....

 

[countertop]

All I ever used through years was a plain old coaches whistle with the cork ball in it.

Thats fine too. I actually have a Gonia since it was cheaper than the coaches whistle at Sports Authority. Either works.

The best dogs I ever owned or hunted with ran by hand / arm signals.

Yep. You should be able to control him by whistle and hand signal.

Here's a pic of my pup that I took yesterday - he's 18 months old. Loves to retrieve (I really recommend the Dokken dead fowl trainers he has in his mouth - he doesn't get bored with them like he does with canvass dummies and they are cheaper than live birds)