Got my 1911 back from Springfield today, but I have questions about sighting in...

[Joe Link]

Here was my original issue:

Roughly two years ago my girlfriend bought me my first (and only) 1911, a beautiful Springfield Loaded with factory night sights and CT grips. I couldn't wait to get it to the range, but once there I was highly disappointed. The CT grips were off by quite a bit, which was fine because I can adjust them easily myself. However, when I tried the sights, the gun consistently shot high left, about 2-3" up and 2-3" over, and I was shooting from the bench. I figured it was probably me because I was still getting used to the gun.

On my next visit there was a guy there with a GI model shooting one rough hole. We got to talking and I told him my problem, then asked him to try shooting my 1911. Shooting it from the bench, he was able to shoot one hole with it as well, but it was off the same as when I shot it, 2-3" high, 2-3" to the left. We drifted the rear sight a bit and got it down to about .75" to the left, but the sight was all the way over and the gun was still shooting high. Since that range visit the gun has been in my safe, untouched. I really like 1911's and I think it's time to get this problem corrected so I can shoot it.

I know Springfield has a warranty, but would it cover something like this? If not, how much would it cost to have them dial it in? Would it be better to take it to a local gunsmith? How much should I expect to pay?

So I got it back from the factory today and the test target (shot after they replaced the barrel) looks like:

Now, I understand that it was at 25 yards, but shouldn't it be shooting groups closer to the center of the target? What would cause the group to be so low and to the right? I sent it back because it wasn't shooting straight and from the looks of this target, it still isn't. Now, I also noticed on the paperwork it says:

Repair 1911 Pistol

1 - 1911 .45 Barrel, SS
Range Tested - Sending Target

1 - .160 Dovetail Frt Night Sight
Note: Front Sight Was Installed After Target

Their troubleshooting is confusing me. If the gun was shooting off center and they found a problem with the barrel, wouldn't they replace the sight and sight it in before range testing it to make sure it was the barrel? How would they know it was the barrel unless the sights were properly adjusted? Can someone please explain this to me? I plan on calling them on Monday, but I'm really curious

 

[machinisttx]

I would imagine that they changed the front sight to correct the elevation problem. There is a mathematical formula to determine how much taller/shorter the front or rear sight need to be. However, there is no guarantee that it's going to shoot the same with the new barrel as it did with the old one. Then again, they may have measured the barrel and found that it was bored and rifled off center. If I'm reading the enclosed note correctly though, they shot the gun after replacing the barrel, but before replacing the sight.

IMO, if the gun still shoots to the right, drift the front slightly to the left.

 

[Joe Link]

Yeah that's what I was thinking too. I would think they would have sighted it in for me though

 

[tipoc]

So you have the Loaded with the option of fixed sights. They also offer adjustable sights as an option.

It looks like the test group is almost on for windage and luckily only a bit low on elevation.

Different weight bullets impact at different points on the target. Lighter bullets lower and heavier higher.

Have you shot the gun since you got it back?

Have you shot the gun for accuracy holding it in your hands and not from a rest?

I suggest you go to the range and shoot it. See where 230 gr. ball ammo lands. Have another shooter try it as well. If it's still shooting low you have 2 options. 1. Send it back to Springfield or, 2. file a bit off the front sight, slowly and a little at a time, till the elevation is where you want it to be with a 6 o'clock hold.

tipoc

 

[Canuck-IL]

2 points - you don't know you're using the same loads they did - that could be some of the elevation. Secondly, when shooting from a Ransom Rest, you're not trying to sight the gun, just estimate the group size so it's not unusual to see the group off from center.
/Bryan

 

[TexasRifleman]

How would they know it was the barrel unless the sights were properly adjusted? Can someone please explain this to me? I plan on calling them on Monday, but I'm really curious

Most factories don't hand fire guns. They clamp them into a Ransom Rest or something similar and fire a group.

At 25 yards yours shows a very acceptable group.

Now it's your turn to sight it in for you.

Just because it's sighted in for one person doesn't mean it would be for the next. It will also vary wildly with ammo.
It might be spot on with what they used.

If that's all you are off at 25 yards you are very close. A couple of adjustments and you're spot on.

 

[Joe Link]

Ah so if they clamp it in a rest that would make a ton of sense. I'll take it out as soon as possible and check it out for myself. Thanks guys!

 

[highlander 5]

The formula for shifting sights/change elevation is easy to do somewhat hard to explain. Take the distance your sights are off
in inches divide by the targets distance again in inches.multiply that number by the barrel length and that's how much you drift or raise/lower. Example I had a Browning 1885 that shot 9" high at 50 yds. So 9" divided by 1800" = .005". .005' x 28"(barrel length) = .140 higher front sight.
Oh in case your wondering I had a Williams peep sight for a rear sight as far down as it would go and it still shot high.
Hope this helps.

 

[loop]

Based on what I can see from the target the group is 3 1/2 inches and 5 inches low and 5 inches to the right. If that is a correct observation, it is not acceptable.

From a Ransom rest a 1911 should be under 2 1/2 inches for the group and within 2 inches of center.

I would enjoy a gun like this because I like fixing these issues. But, it does not shoot to POA and the group is awful.

If you are a handloader I'd suggest trying all your pet loads. If not, I'd start with a call to EGW. I would get a custom-fitted barrel bushing and an oversized slide catch. The barrel bushing will return your barrel to the previous position more reliably, as will the oversized slide catch. These are key elements in accuracy out of a 1911.

I would also order a set of brass drifts or a sight pusher to I could adjust my sights to come closer to the POA.

Lighter bullets generally shoot lower. Heavier bullets generally shoot higher. At 230-grain .45s, given the hits on the target, you will need new sights.

 

[JDGray]

Dont drift that frt sight, its pinned At least my loaded is. When I bought my Loaded, it shot bad groups low and left. I fitted an EGW bushing to .001 clearance to the barrel, tight in the slide(no bushing wrench needed), the groups became one holers! I put an adjustable rear sight on it to correct the elevation, and alls well. Funny thing is the rear sight is perfectly centered Must be I got used to the trigger.

 

[tipoc]

Joey Link,

Go out and shoot the gun with the same ammo that Springfield used in their shooting of it. It says on the target that they used Winchester 230gr. ball.

See if it's still off. If it is send it along with a target you shot back to Springfield.

Everybody else,
Keep in mind what the OP says in his first post. He's had the gun for two years. It was a present from his girlfriend. His first and only 1911. He took it out to shoot it. It did not shoot to point of aim. He put it back in its' box for two years and did not shoot it. He took it out to shoot it again and POA and POI was still off by quite a bit. It had, unfortunately, not fixed itself in the box in two years.

I'm not confidant that home gunsmithing is the right course here. I'm thinking sending it back to Springfield, if there is anything wrong, is the best course.

tipoc

 

[Joe Link]

It had, unfortunately, not fixed itself in the box in two years.

Sad, huh?

 

[MICHAEL T]

Read in his orginal post it shot high left for him and another shooter off bench. He sent to springfield and they fixed. This is their " We fixed target. ". They did now shoots for them Low Right.
As for me at 25 yds I would be hard pressed off hand to keep in a 12" circle. My eyes getting to bad and I never shoot hand guns at 25 yds.
I don't think he will ever get to shoot the way he wants . With fixed sights. Factory bushing and so forth. Its not a target pistol.
Nor can a machine rest shoot the way he holds and sights. The 2 will never met.

 

[tipoc]

Joey,

I'm with ya. I also don't see why Springfield gets a gun in from a fella (you) who says it's not shooting to poa, or close enough to it anyways, and they go on and swap out the barrel. Then they shoot it for accuracy, and then they change the sights, but don't shoot it for accuracy after they changed the sights. This don't make a lot of sense to me either. Especially as they sent you the target from before they changed out the sights. They also didn't explain why they changed out the barrel as this doesn't automatically effect whether the gun is shooting high or low. I don't see the sense of it. Too deep for me no doubt.

Anyways, go shoot the gun and see what happens. Have someone else shoot it too. A gun oughta shoot at least to more or less where ya want it to.

P.S. Nice girlfriend to get you a gun for a present. Hope she stuck around. If she did have her shoot it too.

tipoc

 

[loop]

How is a gun shooting half a foot off fixed?

True, it does not sound like the OP is ready to do any smithing on his own, but send it back to the same yutzes who think that somewhere close to POA (six inches off) is just ducky?

If I did not want to fix it myself I'd find a local smith with a good rep and tell him my issues. Then I'd hold him to the quote (after he had a chance to examine the firearm, of course).

I admit a 2 1/2 inch group at 25 yards is acceptable, but when it is off center by six inches it sucks.

The smith I deal with would quit the trade if that was the best he could offer.

OTOH, when I talk to him about accuracy it is shrinking 2 1/2 at 25 yards to one inch at 25 yards.

POA, it means nothing if it is not POA.

And, BTW, if it is shooting low with WW 230-grain ball, it needs to have a new front sight - not a new barrel.

 

[Majic]

The repair center will shoot for groups which will tell the barrel is fine and no lock up problems (you have a round group, no stringing). Since the grouping was low the front sight was changed to correct this. The sight height was determined by a mathematical formula. Take the gun out and shoot it before complaining. Use the same ammo as the factory. The factory isn't going to worry about sighting the pistol in. They just need to know that the group center is within the adjustment range of the sights.
Let us know where the pistol shoots now after the repairs.

 

[AndyC]

IMO, if the gun still shoots to the right, drift the front slightly to the left.

I'm joining this discussion a bit late, but I have to correct this.

If it were the rear-sight being adjusted, this would be correct - but adjusting the front-sight works the opposite way around. If you're working on the front-sight and need to move the groups left, move the front-sight to the right.

To exaggerate for sake of clarity - imagine you've just moved the front-sight a whole 2 feet out to the left - in which direction would the barrel move before the front and rear-sight line up again? It would have to move to the right, so the gun will obviously shoot more to the right.

Move the rear-sight in the direction you want the groups to move (up for higher, left for more left, etc) - but move the front-sight and the groups will move in the opposite direction to any changes.

 

[Canuck-IL]

Good correction but still a moot point ... if that doesn't have a driftable front sight...ie. if it's on a tenon.
/B

 

[tipoc]

When you have a drift adjustable rear, which 1911s have, ya need not mess with the front sight.

tipoc

 

[AndyC]

*shrug* The poster referred to moving the front sight - I corrected the direction he wanted to move it in case anyone else - who does have a drift-adjustable front-sight - reads that and learns the wrong info.

Wow - 1911s come with drift-adjustable rear sights now, too? Whatever next