Got some .38 special defense ammo
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Jim March
Member
NOT a good choice.
The XTP is a deep-punch, slow-expansion design. They should never have sold it in 38Spl, esp. the 158gr. Odds of expansion are very poor.
The XTP is a deep-punch, slow-expansion design. They should never have sold it in 38Spl, esp. the 158gr. Odds of expansion are very poor.
jaydubya
Member
Speer +p Gold Dot SB -- it was designed specifically for snubbies. The "SB" stands for short barrel. That said, I have Remington +p 158gr LSWCHP -- the soft lead version of the FBI load, in my Airweight. It will expand, whereas the Federal and Winchester versions are very iffy on expansion from snubbies.
Cordially, Jack
Cordially, Jack
Jim March
Member
Jaydubya nailed it, esp. as far as "what you can normally find on a gun shop shelf".
Assuming your 4" barrel 38Spl gun is in decent shape, the absolute king of the hill loads are made by Buffalo Bore:
http://www.buffalobore.com/ammunition/default.htm#38spl
That is just the best 38Spl+P ammo ever shipped, period. That 158+P is a beast, more effective than most 9mm+P. Not recommended for antique guns, classic Colt D-frames ("Dick Special"), I wouldn't shoot 'em in a Charter Arms, and also not compatible with ultra-lights (anything under 18oz).
They also have some 38Spl standard pressure stuff that is as good as anybody else's +P:
http://www.buffalobore.com/ammunition/default.htm#standard38
These will work in any 38Spl gun in reasonable working order. I don't think I'd use the wadcutters, and again I think the 158gr flavor is the best.
All the BuffBore rounds are set up to work in snubbies but will work fine in 4" tubes. Somewhere between 6" to 8" the +P versions might start coming unglued as the speeds go up (generally 50fps for every inch of barrel although it varies a lot).
Assuming your 4" barrel 38Spl gun is in decent shape, the absolute king of the hill loads are made by Buffalo Bore:
http://www.buffalobore.com/ammunition/default.htm#38spl
That is just the best 38Spl+P ammo ever shipped, period. That 158+P is a beast, more effective than most 9mm+P. Not recommended for antique guns, classic Colt D-frames ("Dick Special"), I wouldn't shoot 'em in a Charter Arms, and also not compatible with ultra-lights (anything under 18oz).
They also have some 38Spl standard pressure stuff that is as good as anybody else's +P:
http://www.buffalobore.com/ammunition/default.htm#standard38
These will work in any 38Spl gun in reasonable working order. I don't think I'd use the wadcutters, and again I think the 158gr flavor is the best.
All the BuffBore rounds are set up to work in snubbies but will work fine in 4" tubes. Somewhere between 6" to 8" the +P versions might start coming unglued as the speeds go up (generally 50fps for every inch of barrel although it varies a lot).
Bill_G
Member
+1 on the Remington +p 158gr LSWCHP as long as you dont have an ultra light gun. Midway carries them on line. out of stock now, but they get them in quite frequently.
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=548921
also....see this review at brassfetcher
http://www.brassfetcher.com/158 grain +P lead HP.html
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=548921
also....see this review at brassfetcher
http://www.brassfetcher.com/158 grain +P lead HP.html
Phil DeGraves
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"I got some 38 special Hornady 158 grain XTP Hollow points from midway how are they as a self defense round out of a 4 inch barrel?"
Regardless of whether it is optimum or not, I doubt you'll get any volunteers to stand in front of it while you pull the trigger. It's better than any .25, .32, .380 or .38 Spl RNL or FMJ. Not as good as the 158grn LSWCHP or the 125grn+P JHP.
Regardless of whether it is optimum or not, I doubt you'll get any volunteers to stand in front of it while you pull the trigger. It's better than any .25, .32, .380 or .38 Spl RNL or FMJ. Not as good as the 158grn LSWCHP or the 125grn+P JHP.
wnycollector
Member
I would also suggest checking out doubletaps 125gr +p LV gold dots.
http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_57&products_id=215
http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_57&products_id=215
That Buffalo Bore 125 load virtually duplicates my own hand load. I get 1,150 from a 4" gun and around 1060 from a snubby. I have found this load to be fine in every gun I've tried it in and since the big ammo makers have access to better powders than what is sold for home use they probably do it with slightly less chamber pressure.
ArchAngelCD
Member.
At different times I've carried 3 different rounds in my snub nose revolver, Speer's 135gr .38 Special +P Short Barrel ammo, DoubleTap 125gr .38 Special +P ammo which uses a Gold Dot LV bullet and Remington 158gr .38 Special +P LSWC/HP round. (the FBI load) I'm currently carrying the FBI load but wouldn't hesitate to carry the other 2 I listed. I also hear good things about the various Buffalo Bore offerings but have never tried them.
jad0110
Member
ArchAngel,
Your ammo selection mirrors my own for my 642. I have fired the FBI load in mine, but never carried it. I may yet use it though. I have only carried the Speer 135s, and am about to test the 125 Grain DTs for possible replacement of the Speer 135s.
What are your perceived differences between these 3 cartridges, in terms of felt recoil and muzzle flash? I always felt the FBI load had a bit more felt recoil than the Speer Gold Dots, but that's just me.
Your thoughts would be appreciated.
Your ammo selection mirrors my own for my 642. I have fired the FBI load in mine, but never carried it. I may yet use it though. I have only carried the Speer 135s, and am about to test the 125 Grain DTs for possible replacement of the Speer 135s.
What are your perceived differences between these 3 cartridges, in terms of felt recoil and muzzle flash? I always felt the FBI load had a bit more felt recoil than the Speer Gold Dots, but that's just me.
Your thoughts would be appreciated.
Avery Goodschott
Member
Buffalo Bore Standard Pressure 158's all the way.
ArchAngelCD
Member.
jad0110,
The DoubleTap 125gr ammo feels just about the same as the Speer 135gr ammo or just a little more recoil. When I ran them both over a chrono the DoubleTap ammo was faster. When I carry a JHP round it's usually DoubleTap because of the price. Since they both use a Gold Dot bullet why not pay $26/50 rounds instead of $21/20 rounds of Speer Ammo. I haven't shot either at night or Dusk so I can't tell you if the flash is different.
As for the FBI load, I use Remington R38S12 rounds and the felt recoil does seem a little higher but that's to be expected when you're firing a 158gr projectile compared to either a 125gr or 135gr bullet. After several years of carrying either the Speer SB round and more recently the DoubleTap round I think I like the FBI load better and will be carrying that from now on. I also like the fact a 158gr bullet shoots POA=POI on a fixed sight S&W revolver.
Hope this helps a bit...
coach22,
Why would you mix different rounds in your revolvers like that? It's really not a good idea IMO. Mixing different bullet weights, bullet companies and velocities will make it very hard to achieve accurate bullet placement. In reality bullet placement is much more important than the bullet you shoot. When under pressure it's hard enough to shoot well but with all the variables you are forcing on yourself I would find it very difficult to place my shots accurately.
The DoubleTap 125gr ammo feels just about the same as the Speer 135gr ammo or just a little more recoil. When I ran them both over a chrono the DoubleTap ammo was faster. When I carry a JHP round it's usually DoubleTap because of the price. Since they both use a Gold Dot bullet why not pay $26/50 rounds instead of $21/20 rounds of Speer Ammo. I haven't shot either at night or Dusk so I can't tell you if the flash is different.
As for the FBI load, I use Remington R38S12 rounds and the felt recoil does seem a little higher but that's to be expected when you're firing a 158gr projectile compared to either a 125gr or 135gr bullet. After several years of carrying either the Speer SB round and more recently the DoubleTap round I think I like the FBI load better and will be carrying that from now on. I also like the fact a 158gr bullet shoots POA=POI on a fixed sight S&W revolver.
Hope this helps a bit...
coach22,
Why would you mix different rounds in your revolvers like that? It's really not a good idea IMO. Mixing different bullet weights, bullet companies and velocities will make it very hard to achieve accurate bullet placement. In reality bullet placement is much more important than the bullet you shoot. When under pressure it's hard enough to shoot well but with all the variables you are forcing on yourself I would find it very difficult to place my shots accurately.
Jim March
Member
Quoting ArchAngelCD:
I mostly agree when it's all 38Spl. I myself "stack" in my 357: first two are Speer's 135gr 38+P, next four are Doubletap 125gr 357 "full house and then some".
Point of impact is similar. The Speer rounds are carrying maybe 275ft/lbs energy from my 4.68" barrel; the Doubletaps are carrying almost 800
. The idea is that the DTs are a bigger threat to bystanders and a LOT louder; if it's possible for me to solve the problem without those issues I'll do it, plus with luck after the first two shots bystanders will either make themselves scarce or hit the deck . At which point, my gun is a bit like a phaser that's reset itself from "kill" to "extra crispy" .
This combination is closest to what I'm doing and makes the most sense of his "stacked sets":
I mostly agree when it's all 38Spl. I myself "stack" in my 357: first two are Speer's 135gr 38+P, next four are Doubletap 125gr 357 "full house and then some".
Point of impact is similar. The Speer rounds are carrying maybe 275ft/lbs energy from my 4.68" barrel; the Doubletaps are carrying almost 800
. The idea is that the DTs are a bigger threat to bystanders and a LOT louder; if it's possible for me to solve the problem without those issues I'll do it, plus with luck after the first two shots bystanders will either make themselves scarce or hit the deck . At which point, my gun is a bit like a phaser that's reset itself from "kill" to "extra crispy" .This combination is closest to what I'm doing and makes the most sense of his "stacked sets":
jad0110
Member
Yes, it does, I do appreciate the info. I'll post my observations here and in The 642 Club after this weekend.
Your observation about the cost difference between the DTs and the Speers is another reason I'm considering making a switch. But if I like the FBI load and do equally well with the DTs, I may well load my 642 with the 158s and carry the DTs as reloads. Those smaller, slicker 125 grain JHPs are easier to line up with the charge holes than the larger 158 grain LSWCHPs IMHO.
ArchAngelCD
I load my 340 PD that way because in a 12 ounce gun,
I am able to get off the first 2 shots quickly and on target.
If those 2 didn't take care of the problem,
the following 3 would, I hope.
I have tried many different 38+P's in my 340
and the DPX are the easiest +P for me to control.
As you yourself said, bullet placement is what's important.
I am able to place the DPX bullet where I want.
I believe each one of us should use
what they are most comfortable with.
Regarding how I load my 640 (38), see Jim March.
I hope this answers your question regarding how I load my 38's.
I load my 340 PD that way because in a 12 ounce gun,
I am able to get off the first 2 shots quickly and on target.
If those 2 didn't take care of the problem,
the following 3 would, I hope.
I have tried many different 38+P's in my 340
and the DPX are the easiest +P for me to control.
As you yourself said, bullet placement is what's important.
I am able to place the DPX bullet where I want.
I believe each one of us should use
what they are most comfortable with.
Regarding how I load my 640 (38), see Jim March.
I hope this answers your question regarding how I load my 38's.
Jim March
Member
Coach: given the average distance in a personal defense gunfight, the tiny difference in point of impact from shot to shot shouldn't matter. Do what feels workable.
One other point I missed: if you're real lucky, the difference in sound between the first two and subsequent rounds MIGHT make one or more of the opponents think another gunman joined in on your side (as in, you just gained an ally). Confusion to your enemy is a good thing.
Odds of this being a factor are REAL low...but what the hell, right?
One other point I missed: if you're real lucky, the difference in sound between the first two and subsequent rounds MIGHT make one or more of the opponents think another gunman joined in on your side (as in, you just gained an ally). Confusion to your enemy is a good thing
.Odds of this being a factor are REAL low...but what the hell, right?
ArchAngelCD
Member.
coach22 & Jim,
Thanks for the explanations.
Thanks for the explanations.
ArchAngelCD
Member.
There is another added advantage of carrying JHP rounds as reloads instead of the lead rounds. A continuing knock against the FBI round is the lead is soft so when carried in your pocket for a while the hollow point tends to crush over or close. If you decide to carry the DT rounds as reloads that would eliminate the possibility of bullet distortion. (I hope I explained that well enough)
I recently received 100 rounds of the buffalo Bore 158 swc HP in 158 grain non plus P.
This will become the standard in my 38 special revolvers for all the women folk in my family and my personal snub nose 38's. I also have a ammo can half speer GD 235 grain and half Black Hills 125 grain. Both Plus P.
I have a couple boxes of the hornady 158 grain non plus P if needed. I know they might not expand, but they will penetrate. That's why I got them.
Right now Mom has Winchester silver tips non Plus P in her snub for the bedroom
gun. I figure that should be good for close encounters until I can transition her over to the buffalo loads.
I tried a box of Corbon DPX 38's. I had three in the box that did not go bang.
Corbon ammunition is no longer within my comfort zone to use for sd.
John!
This will become the standard in my 38 special revolvers for all the women folk in my family and my personal snub nose 38's. I also have a ammo can half speer GD 235 grain and half Black Hills 125 grain. Both Plus P.
I have a couple boxes of the hornady 158 grain non plus P if needed. I know they might not expand, but they will penetrate. That's why I got them.
Right now Mom has Winchester silver tips non Plus P in her snub for the bedroom
gun. I figure that should be good for close encounters until I can transition her over to the buffalo loads.
I tried a box of Corbon DPX 38's. I had three in the box that did not go bang.
Corbon ammunition is no longer within my comfort zone to use for sd.
John!
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