Got to check out my first cowboy action shooting match

[Jim Watson]

Well, darn, my fantasy dashed.
But so are pump shotguns and automatic pistols. Should not have been surprised when the organizers named themselves after a movie set in 1913.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Driftwood- What type of loads do competitors use in your matches?

During this past year, I was surprised to see Sportsman's Warehouse offering CAS oriented factory ammo featuring a .45 Colt loading with a 180 gr bullet launched in the upper 400 fps range.

That seems to be a bit "gun gamey" to me.

Most of the really serious competitors shoot lightly loaded 38 Special in their pistols and rifles. They shoot very light loads in their shotguns too. These guys are incredibly fast, they can empty a single action revolver faster than most shooters can empty a 1911. Yes, we call those guys gamers. Nobody can shoot that fast, particularly with a single action revolver if it is recoiling very much.

Maximum velocity allowed in all Smokeless categories is 1000fps from a pistol and 1400 fps from a rifle. Minimum velocity allowed is 400 fps. A few years ago a minimum power factor was introduced to keep the 'mouse fart' loads to some minimum standard. Minimum power factor allowed is 60. I believe a 180 grain bullet moving at 400 fps would have a power factor of 72. The same bullet moving at 500 fps would have a power factor of 90.

I can't tell you how many beginners I have known that just had to get 45s, because of the romance of the cartridge, but then tried to load it down so it recoiled about like a lightly loaded 38. A big, cavernous case like the 45 Colt does not usually do very well when loaded with 2 flakes of Whiz Bang, so a lot of those guys eventually trade their 45s in for 38s.

Interestingly enough, there is no power factor required for Black Powder loads. But a few years ago it became obvious that some BP competitors were loading their ammo so light that there was hardly any recoil or smoke being generated. That is when the Black Powder Smoke requirement was added, and I was one of the movers and shakers in making that happen. One of the things I wrote at the time was we shoot Black Powder not because it is easy, but because it is hard, to paraphrase President Kennedy. I also wrote that it is expected that the BP competitor may have to contend with smoke obscured targets. You may have noticed in my video that half way through my rifle string I had to move because I could see the targets through the smoke. It is always easier to shoot BP if there is a good breeze, the worst situation is shooting into the sun with no breeze. The haze created by the smoke completely obscures the targets. The Smoke standard is that cartridges must produce the same amount of smoke created by a 38 Special with 1CC of Goex FFg and a 145 grain bullet. I have never seen anybody called on this because different atmospheric conditions make for different amounts of smoke. You may have noticed that my pistols have a fair amount of recoil. My 250 grain bullets are moving about 700 fps from my 7 1/2" barreled Colt, a little bit less from my 4 3/4" Colt. Certainly not maximum loads, but they do create a lot of smoke and fairly stout recoil. Hmmmmmmmmm.... 250 grains X 700 fps /1000= a power factor of 175 if there was a power factor for BP loads. I'm using a little bit more than twice the minimum load of powder to create my smoke, so I think my loads are OK.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

But so are pump shotguns and automatic pistols.

Winchester Model 1897 pump shotguns and their replicas are allowed.

 

[DocRock]

Everyone there was so fast, especially with the lever action rifles. I’m sure it would be more money then I want to spend to get into it. But it was really fun to watch and talk with them.

Not everyone. I only get out a few times a year and I'm plenty slow!

 

[Jim Watson]

Winchester Model 1897 pump shotguns and their replicas are allowed.

Exactly. I consider that a bug, not a feature.

 

[.455_Hunter]

Most of the really serious competitors shoot lightly loaded 38 Special in their pistols and rifles. They shoot very light loads in their shotguns too. These guys are incredibly fast, they can empty a single action revolver faster than most shooters can empty a 1911. Yes, we call those guys gamers. Nobody can shoot that fast, particularly with a single action revolver if it is recoiling very much.

Maximum velocity allowed in all Smokeless categories is 1000fps from a pistol and 1400 fps from a rifle. Minimum velocity allowed is 400 fps. A few years ago a minimum power factor was introduced to keep the 'mouse fart' loads to some minimum standard. Minimum power factor allowed is 60. I believe a 180 grain bullet moving at 400 fps would have a power factor of 72. The same bullet moving at 500 fps would have a power factor of 90.

I can't tell you how many beginners I have known that just had to get 45s, because of the romance of the cartridge, but then tried to load it down so it recoiled about like a lightly loaded 38. A big, cavernous case like the 45 Colt does not usually do very well when loaded with 2 flakes of Whiz Bang, so a lot of those guys eventually trade their 45s in for 38s.

Interestingly enough, there is no power factor required for Black Powder loads. But a few years ago it became obvious that some BP competitors were loading their ammo so light that there was hardly any recoil or smoke being generated. That is when the Black Powder Smoke requirement was added, and I was one of the movers and shakers in making that happen. One of the things I wrote at the time was we shoot Black Powder not because it is easy, but because it is hard, to paraphrase President Kennedy. I also wrote that it is expected that the BP competitor may have to contend with smoke obscured targets. You may have noticed in my video that half way through my rifle string I had to move because I could see the targets through the smoke. It is always easier to shoot BP if there is a good breeze, the worst situation is shooting into the sun with no breeze. The haze created by the smoke completely obscures the targets. The Smoke standard is that cartridges must produce the same amount of smoke created by a 38 Special with 1CC of Goex FFg and a 145 grain bullet. I have never seen anybody called on this because different atmospheric conditions make for different amounts of smoke. You may have noticed that my pistols have a fair amount of recoil. My 250 grain bullets are moving about 700 fps from my 7 1/2" barreled Colt, a little bit less from my 4 3/4" Colt. Certainly not maximum loads, but they do create a lot of smoke and fairly stout recoil. Hmmmmmmmmm.... 250 grains X 700 fps /1000= a power factor of 175 if there was a power factor for BP loads. I'm using a little bit more than twice the minimum load of powder to create my smoke, so I think my loads are OK.

I hope there continues to be a contingent of CAS shooters who utilize realistic loads for their weapons, like yourself. Seeing how fast you can two-handed dump a modified Vaquero with less than .38 Short Colt equivalent ammo doesn't provide me much interest.

I have shot in competitions where we were going out to 1000 yards with original and replica BP cartridge guns. Its pretty fun to use an original Trapdoor with 500 gr projectile service loads to engage steel silhouettes at that range. I would also enjoy a vintage revolver completion where targets were engaged out to 100 yards and shot with full performance (or close to it) ammo, with the theme being "take your time in a hurry"...

 

[arcticap]

By the way,
We always only load five, whether shooting cartridges or Cap & Ball, because the old Colt style lockwork is not safe with a live round under the hammer. Drop it on the hammer and you may shoot yourself.

Is there a controversy over whether it's dangerous to rest the hammer on a pin with a Colt C&B?
Wasn't that the period correct way to carry one?
And I've heard the warnings that pins can wear out.

With a Remington, is resting the hammer in a cylinder slot a controversial safety practice?
After carefully placing a cap on each nipple very carefully lower the hammer onto a pin located between each chamber. Loaded – you’re ready to approach the line.

Is there a way to customized safety notches in C&B revolvers to make them safer to carry with 6 shots, or can you recommend another fix?

The technical advisor of the Possibles Shop seems to advocate using the safety pins after loading 6 shots in a Colt 1860 until approaching the firing line. --->>> https://possibleshop.com/did-you-know/d-y-k-loading-the-c-b-pistol.html

The Howell .22 conversion cylinder for the 1860 has 6 safety notches milled into it. --->>> https://www.howellarms.com/1860-army/1860-pietta-army-44-conversion-kit-to-22lr

Could that kind of modification be mandated for competition if an organization wanted to allow firing 6 rounds instead of 5?

 

[Jim Watson]

I think there is too much room for error. The 5+0 standard is well established.

I was regularly schooled on my failure to load one, skip one, load four; but then I didn't have binding cylinder rotation from high primers, burred rims, or fouled chambers, either.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

s there a controversy over whether it's dangerous to rest the hammer on a pin with a Colt C&B?
Wasn't that the period correct way to carry one?
And I've heard the warnings that pins can wear out.

With a Remington, is resting the hammer in a cylinder slot a controversial safety practice?
After carefully placing a cap on each nipple very carefully lower the hammer onto a pin located between each chamber. Loaded – you’re ready to approach the line.

Is there a way to customized safety notches in C&B revolvers to make them safer to carry with 6 shots, or can you recommend another fix?

The technical advisor of the Possibles Shop seems to advocate using the safety pins after loading 6 shots in a Colt 1860 until approaching the firing line. --->>> https://possibleshop.com/did-you-know/d-y-k-loading-the-c-b-pistol.html

The Howell .22 conversion cylinder for the 1860 has 6 safety notches milled into it. --->>> https://www.howellarms.com/1860-army/1860-pietta-army-44-conversion-kit-to-22lr

Could that kind of modification be mandated for competition if an organization wanted to allow firing 6 rounds instead of 5?

No, there is no controversy. Hammer down on an empty chamber. End of story.

 

[arcticap]

I think there is too much room for error. The 5+0 standard is well established.

I was regularly schooled on my failure to load one, skip one, load four; but then I didn't have binding cylinder rotation from high primers, burred rims, or fouled chambers, either.

If there's a modification that's considered to be safe, then it becomes a matter of enforcement.
There can be enough range officers to inspect that each person has their hammer in the safety notch before they leave the loading table.
It's probably more about not wanting to force people to make the necessary modifications, or not being able to agree on what's safe or not safe.

That's why I'm asking if cylinder notches are indeed safe.
Or do the organizations simply think that they can't police themselves.

 

[arcticap]

No, there is no controversy. Hammer down on an empty chamber. End of story.

DJ,
I asked about outside of competition.
Your reply doesn't address the real world and whether the Howell .22 Colt cylinder slots are safe for public carry, or the Remington cylinder slots.

There isn't such a safety rule for public carry, is there?

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

We don't have a lot of safety officers roaming around checking to see what is safe and what is not.

Hammer down on an empty chamber. Colt, Uberti, Ruger, Cap & Ball, antique S&W Top Break, etc, period.

We often have a safety officer at the loading table, and the routine is to hold your loaded pistols up so he can peer through and see that there is no rim under the hammer, but that only works with a revolver that has a gap between the rear of the cylinder and the frame. Some revolvers don't have that. Besides, we sometimes don't have a loading officer at the loading table.

Hammer down on an empty chamber, end of story.

 

[dave951]

How's this for shooting through smoke?


Fall Nationals at Ft Shenandoah in Winchester, VA. The visibility was so bad after 2 volleys of musket fire I had to kneel down to locate a target.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

DJ,
I asked about outside of competition.
Your reply doesn't address the real world and whether the Howell .22 Colt cylinder slots are safe for public carry, or the Remington cylinder slots.

There isn't such a safety rule for public carry, is there?

I wouldn't know. I don't carry.

If I did carry a Colt, it would be loaded with five rounds, with the hammer down on an empty chamber. Why do you think Ruger started using transfer bars back in the 1970s? Too many lawsuits from injuries resulting in shooters who did not understand that an old Colt, or a Ruger Three Screw for that matter, could discharge if it fell to the ground and landed on its hammer. If I carried a modern Ruger, it would be fully loaded as would any relatively modern S&W revolver that I own.

For what it's worth, the nose of the hammer on my old EuroArms Remmie is too fat to slip into the slots between firing pins on my old R&D cylinder, so I would not consider carrying it without an empty chamber under the hammer. Yeah, I could file down the hammer nose to make it fit, but I ain't gonna do that.






The pins between nipples on the Pietta 1860 at the left in this photo are far too small to be relied on to keep the hammer there.






The Smith and Wesson New Model Number Three actually had a rebounding hammer and the trigger sear would pop into a tiny 'safety notch' on the hammer when the trigger was released. Look how tiny those parts are, they surely would not survive if the gun fell on its hammer spur, so I would never carry one of these fully loaded.






As with most of the other #3 Top Breaks, the Russian model did not have a rebounding hammer. Just a simple 'safety cock' notch on the hammer that would probably break if the hammer spur received a strong blow.






And forget about keeping the firing pin between rims on a fully loaded Colt. At least with large calibers, there is not enough space between rims to keep the rounded tip of the firing pin from riding up over the rims if the cylinder gets rotated.





P.S. I should post this photo of Colt parts. the upper arrow is pointing to the 'safety cock' notch on the hammer, the lower arrow is pointing to the sear. The sear is very thin. If it was nested in the 'safety cock' notch of the hammer and the hammer spur received a serious blow, the sear would probably shear right off.






Lock parts if a Colt Bisley. The sear is just as delicate as the sear on the standard SAA.

 

[DukeConnor]

The depth of knowledge on this forum never ceases to amaze me.

 

[arcticap]

I wouldn't know. I don't carry.

If I did carry a Colt, it would be loaded with five rounds, with the hammer down on an empty chamber.

Thank you DJ for all of the information.
I'm curious if you've ever seen or heard about a competitor dropping their gun when cocking it during competition, or if there's ever been an accidental discharge due to dropping a gun during competition.
There's a lot of hand and arm motions when cocking revolvers one handed, and sometimes with a weak hand, so I wonder if a pistol has ever slipped out of a person's hand in the process of cocking it, and possibly leading to an unintended discharge or not.
Has anyone ever been shot during one of these competitions, such as by a newbie who may have dropped a gun?
I'm sure that the organizations and ranges have insurance to cover any accidents, but was wondering if to your knowledge, it has ever needed to be used.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Yup, every once in a while a gun gets dropped. Sometimes a rifle is not staged securely and it may fall over. Every once in a long while somebody will drop a pistol. Usually not when actually cocking it, usually when drawing or reholstering. Any dropped unloaded firearm is a stage DQ. Any dropped loaded firearm is s match DQ and you go home. Which is exactly why we have the rule of hammer down on an empty chamber. Sometimes somebody will discharge a pistol accidentally, slightly before they meant to, not realizing how light the trigger is. Hopefully the pistol was already pointed down range. We have very strict rules about that. Either a stage DQ or a match DQ, depending on how close the bullet impact was. Match DQ and you go home. Two Stage DQs and you go home.

I am not going to comment on a public forum about some of the other questions you asked.

 

[Crunchy Frog]

SASS rules allow the use of a five shot revolver with all chambers loaded but the hammer must rest on a dummy chamber or on a safety slot/pin in the cylinder. With a six shot revolver the hammer must rest on the empty chamber, whether it’s a cartridge gun or a percussion revolver.

I can’t load my New Model Rugers with six rounds, even though they are perfectly safe given the transfer bar ignition. Because the rules apply to everyone.

 

[Crunchy Frog]

Thank you DJ for all of the information.
I'm curious if you've ever seen or heard about a competitor dropping their gun when cocking it during competition, or if there's ever been an accidental discharge due to dropping a gun during competition.
There's a lot of hand and arm motions when cocking revolvers one handed, and sometimes with a weak hand, so I wonder if a pistol has ever slipped out of a person's hand in the process of cocking it, and possibly leading to an unintended discharge or not.
Has anyone ever been shot during one of these competitions, such as by a newbie who may have dropped a gun?
I'm sure that the organizations and ranges have insurance to cover any accidents, but was wondering if to your knowledge, it has ever needed to be used.

I’ve been shooting cowboy for almost 11 years. The sport has an excellent safety record. Our safety rules help, especially since the sport is designed to be approachable by shooters of all ages (well, no toddlers) and levels of physical ability. This means we don’t “shoot on the move”, for example. We load the number of rounds according to the targets on the stage, shoot the guns dry and then reholster or restage them.

 

[Tommygunn]

I think the safety pins/slots were mainly useful for military service during the Civil War, when the need for firepower over-rode safety concerns. Even back then I believe that "hammer down on empty chamber" was considered best safety practice. In fact it used to be that with cartridge revolvers a empty case was used to hold a folded up mount of paper money.....supposedly to pay for the owner's funeral, if need be.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

In fact it used to be that with cartridge revolvers a empty case was used to hold a folded up mount of paper money.....supposedly to pay for the owner's funeral, if need be.

An interesting myth about the Old West. No idea if it is really true. The way I heard it, a $20 bill would be rolled up and left in the empty chamber. I tried this with both a S&W #2 32 Rimfire Tip Up cylinder and a SAA 45 Colt cylinder.






The $20 bill would not fit in a chamber of the Tip Up.






It fits fine in the 45 Chamber, but I suspect if the revolver was fired the bill would get charred. Mean to try it at the next CAS match I attend. Have not attended any this year because of the Corona Virus. Don't fancy wearing a mask all day in the hot sun. Will wait and see if I can start attending matches again next summer.

 

[expat_alaska]

You are using a modern Federal Reserve note. Prior to the Federal Reserve Bank coming into being in 1914, bank notes were different sizes as issued by various State Banks. The sizes were all over the map.

Look it up.

Regards,

Jim

 

[treedoc1]

Smoky after 2 volleys??? How about after 26 shots in 30 seconds.

 

[treedoc1]

All of you nay sayers, Debbie downers, and poo pooers, probably cook your steaks well done, drink your tequila in a frozen margarita, and believed you would shoot your eye out.
Get yourself to a match and smile. See you there.

 

[treedoc1]

What baffles me is the short yardages they shoot at. I like shotguns/wingshooting/skeet, and that stuff is 23 yards (skeet at center stake) with clays flying in excess of 80 mph. Cowboy shooting is at stationary targets.

Go figure.

Skeet
46 mph from high house, 48 mph from low house, 63' to center stake from each pad 1-7.
Cowboy
Pistol targets
• Minimum distance is 7 yards; maximum
distance is 10 yards.
• Minimum pistol target size is 16” x 16”.
Shotgun targets
• Minimum distance is 8 yards; maximum
distance is 16 yards.
• Minimum shotgun target size for 8 yards is
8” x 8”
• Minimum shotgun target size for over 8
yards is 16” x 16” average.
Rifle targets
• Minimum distance is 13 yards; maximum
distance is 50 yards.
• Minimum rifle target size is 16” x 16”.

Now you can figure.