Grades of Tool Steel, what to look for.

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I have recently found myself getting very interested in knives, axes, tomahawks and other edged weapons. As I am looking at them online, I see many different designators for the type of steel used, and I am clueless as to what is good and what is crap. I have bought a few crappy knives in my time.

I found some documentation online about grades of tool steel, but it was very technical and confusing.

I kust want to know what types are good, perhaps on a scale system, and what to avoid.

Links, or simply explanatory posting would be appreciated.

Until recently my everyday pocket knife consisted of one of those folding razor-blade holders. It works very well, and is a great tool, but I lust after a nice pocket folder, and I don't want to get taken.
 
firstly, anything made by Benchmade will make you happy. especially the Axis locks...

after a while you will just "know" the steels, but for now, here's a list, off the top of my head, of good steels[all stainlesses]:

440C
154CM
CPM154
S30V
AUS8
ZDP-189

~tmm
 
If you see "440 Stainless" it's crap. They want you to think it's 440C but it's not. I like ATS-34 and 440C for good affordable knives with stainless steel. Of course the "super steels" are all excellent but cost much more. CPM154CM, S30V, S60V, S90V and CPM 3V are all examples of these.

In carbon steels there's many great ones. I use O1 tool steel but there's A2, D2, 1095, 5160, and L6 to name a few.

Try this link for explanations of the steels the Crucible Steel sells:

http://www.crucibleservice.com/products/knife/index.cfm

Join a knife forum or 2:

http://www.knifeforums.com/
http://usualsuspect.net/
http://www.knifeforums.com/

The best folders are made by Strider, Emerson and Benchmade, in that order. :D There are many companies that make good folders and many that make complete crap. Spyderco has been popular for a very long time and they make a knife that isn't too expensive yet does the job well.

Hope this little bit helps. :)
 
Tool Steels -D2, M2, A2

Stainless - what he said, + VG10 & H1.

it's a bit long to explain, but if you google 'knife steels' +/- the name of one of these steels, you'll find tons of info.
 
So steels like 440A 440B and 420x should be avoided?

Can anything else regarding the characteristics of steel be said? Like, does this one hold an edge over this one, and if so, does that make it harder to sharpen?
 
I like ATS 34.

As an aside, I would think the heat treatment would be equally important with the grade of steel. Am I right? :confused:
 
http://spyderco.com/edge-u-cation/

http://www.agrussell.com/knife_information/steel_guide/index.html

http://www.agrussell.com/knife_information/knife_encyclopedia/glossary/d.html#D-2

Steel is just the beginning. Edge geometry and heat treat are the other 2 legs of this 3-legged monster that is a knife. Without the proper heat treat an expensive high-tech steel blade may be brittle and chip/break or it could be butter soft and never take/hold and edge. With the wrong edge geometry even properly heat treated super steels may make worthless blades compared to an "old fashioned' 440C blade with an apple seed geometry and proper heat threat.
 
So steels like 440A 440B and 420x should be avoided?

Generally, yes. Case Knives does a pretty good job with their steels but stay away from 440 unless it has a C behind it.

Like, does this one hold an edge over this one, and if so, does that make it harder to sharpen?

Yes, they all have different edge-holding abilities and all of that depends on grind and heat treat. The harder the steel, generally the longer the edge will hold but it'll chip easier and will be harder to sharpen.

Heat treat is all-important, so much so that Buck moved Paul Bos into their facility in Idaho. Bos is the best there is at HT, well I think so anyway, and I send my stainless knives to him - as do many custom knifemakers.
 
O1 is very forgiving for the home heat treater. More so than 1095 ( least for me anyways ). I send all my S30v to Paul Bos , its like insurance that if I do my part , that knife will cut and last.

Can't go wrong with 440C , ATS34 or 154CM.
440 Stainless :uhoh: and if it says 440 Surgical Stainless... that's a dbl :uhoh:
 
In my knifemaking days I used mostly O-1 and the venerable D-2.
As hso stated, edge geometry, and proper heat treat are a large part of the picture also.
I hollow ground all my blades except for the bowie types and had the blades professionally heat treated to a 57-59-Rc.
O-1 is a very good knife steel and D-2, (chrome- vanadium) is an exceptional steel.
Downside? Being high-carbon both steels can rust without care though D-2 in it's hardened state approaches some stainless types in rust resistance.
Respectfully, Zeke
 
BTW, all except a minor "ingredient" is the same between ATS-34 and 154cm. I believe the ATS-34 is the Japanese variant of 154cm.

That being said, I try to always use S30V.
 
a2 tool steel makes for some good knives only problem with it is that it can rust but its nothing some gun kote or an occasional rub down with wd-40 can't fix
 
I don't agree with the premise of the question -- that we can grade steels on some kind of hierarchical system without mentioned intended use, and end up with something meaningful. For any of the steels mentioned, I can find a particular usage for which the supposedly-inferior steel will work better than the supposedly-superior steel. Given any two steels, I can find a usage for which the inferior steel holds its edge longer. In short, this type of ranking either ends up as a popularity contest, or ends up having unspoken context around the expected usage, and in neither case are the lists of "these are good steels, these are not" all that accurate.

If you just want to put a neat little list together, and don't care if it's particularly accurate, then going this route is fine. If you actually want to understand steels in some meaningful way, I suggest going about it in a totally different way.

First: get a handle on the properties of steel that effect performance. There are a lot of these, and can get very technical (there are whole sciences devoted to it), but a reasonable place to start is look at: strength, wear resistance, toughness, rust resistance.

Second: get a handle on what types of jobs require relatively more of the properties I just named above. What does chopping hardwoods require? What about splitting? What about whittling? What about cutting carpet? What about food prep? What about a plain ol' EDC folder?

Third: Get a handle around this principle: the edge retention of a steel is not just its wear resistance, or its strength, or its toughness -- it's a function of the steel properties and how well they work for a particular usage. If X has more wear resistance than Y, you cannot say "X steel holds an edge better than Y steel", because what if I find a job (e.g., whittling) where edge strength is a more important determiner of edge retention than wear resistance is, and X steel is very weak where Y steel is very strong?

Fourth: Put it all together. Figure out which steels are good for which jobs, and why. Above, it was suggested that 440A should be avoided, but S30V is great. When you get to this point, you should be able to say why 440A might be a better choice than S30V for a low-maintenance saltwater dive knife. You should be able to say why 440A might be better than ATS-34 for a big chopper. And you should be able to say why S30V and ATS-34 might be better choices than 440A for an EDC folder. You'll think in terms of "which properties are needed for the intended purpose of this knife, and which steels have good mixes of those properties", which will get you closer to the right answer, instead of thinking in terms of "here is the list I got from the internet of good steels and bad steels", which will sometimes get you the right steel for the job but sometimes lead you astray.

This is a slightly longer road to gain knowledge, but once you have even a basic grasp of the above, you'll be more knowledgeable than most knife people. Here's a link that will help you along. It is item #10, entitled "Steel": http://www.edcknives.com/vcom/knife_knowledge.php
 
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"The best folders are made by Strider, Emerson and Benchmade, in that order."

Okay, I guess I'll have to sell both of my Sebenzas. :cuss: Can I keep the 4-inch sheath knife with the D2 blade?

John
 
Two cheers for Mr. Talmadge.

Rank ordering steels is pointless without insights into what the intended use is. In addition to steels--grinds, heat-treat, blade profile, ergonomics, and other variables, can make a knife with "inferior" steel vastly superior to a poorly thought out or poorly executed design in a "superior" steel.

I have a humble Buck 110 that uses 420HC as its steel, but because it has an excellent heat treatment, great fit and finish, and a handy clip pointed blade, this ~$35.00 masterpiece gets a lot more play than some of my more expensive purchases that I bought for all of the wrong reasons.

For example, I have a few tanto shaped folding knives, all made of better steel than the Buck, but I didn't think through the lack of utility in the tanto shaped blade and these knives haven't been out of the safe for going on three years now despite their material superiority.

One of my favorite knives, an Ontario RAT-5, is made of 1095. Not a super steel by any measure, but this mass produced $85.00 blade was better designed and is more comfortable to use than a few "superior" $300.00 customs and semi customs I have or had.

My EDC is a Benchmade 806D2 Axis. D2 is one of the "better steels." However, I wouldn't want it in a knife over six inches in length because it is too brittle for prying and hacking at that size. In a mid-sized folder, D2 is just about perfect.

Blah, blah, blah. Steel is only part of the package.
 
I haven't had any luck with edge holding on 440A. As the link said " with solid HT they are okay" , I prefer a steel that better suits me.

Most people truely could get by with good old 1095 or 5160. And most wouldnt know the difference if the knife was made from ATS34 , 154CM , CPM154 or S30v. But that is what makes it so great , you can pick a knife from any of the various makers in a steel that suits what YOU need/want out of knife.

The link Joe posted is a darn good one , and a great read for anyone who is interested in knives. I think that would make a good link for anyone to read who has the questions " What do I really need in a knife ? "

great post Joe !
 
Although ATS 34 and 154 CM is very similar in make up, I have found that until very recently, there was vastly differing outcomes.

ATS 34 is a brand name owned by Hitachi of Japan, it was created to compete with 154 CM for use in very high stress uses like turbine blades, turbo charger vanes, connecting rod for 20,000 rpm motorcycles etc. 154 was a proprietary steel from Crucible but they started to get sloppy in making it, first they stopped vacuum degassing it, and then they started to make in bigger melts where homogenization did not take place as well as it should have and then they just failed to verify the base melt as well as they should have. Hitachi on the other hand, kept the quality very very high and from lot to lot there was very little if any appreciable variation.

I have found it to be the best over all knife steel for every day use that i have found. I have a big box filled with knifes to show the history of that decision. Later when I was running a wood working shop, we were able to buy jointer and shaper knives made in ATS 34 that ended up rivaling carbide for blade life and we could sharpen them ourselves. Running 1500 linear foot of heavy crown molding in white oak or black cherry was easy and we got very little signs of dulling or burning on the wood. One pass thru the indexing sharpener made them good as new. On the planer, with a good brush set up to sweep the wood before it hit the blades, we would routinely get 4000 lineal feet per sharpening.
 
Thanks JTW. And I don't doubt you when you say you haven't seen great performance from 440A. I think in most cases, something like ATS-34 or 154-CM will outperform 440A. But it's the exceptions that are interesting. For a saltwater dive knife, 440A's far better rust resistance might make for a better knife overall. For a chopper, 440A's much better toughness means you can put an edge on it that would simply crack away if you had ATS-34. For a kitchen knife, it depends on what you do with it, but I can imagine cases where 440A's great rust resistance makes a big difference if you're cutting acidic things like tomatos. Definitely makes it worth spending a few seconds understand the attributes that make steels work for cutlery.

pete, interesting note on the 154-CM history. Crucible claims that 154-CM was never vacuum remelted, and so the story about Crucible ceasing vacuum remelting is not true; they say that story and the story about the grade getting dirtier is just a myth in wide circulation possibly from Bob Engnath's catalog. Certainly, ATS-34 has never been vacuum remelted either, so 154-CM and ATS-34 were always peers on that. Crucible claims they just stopped putting out 154-CM in sizes suitable for use by knifemakers, and for that reason, knifemakers switched to ATS-34. Obviously, that's no longer the case, and most knifemakers say that current production 154-CM is actually a little cleaner than ATS-34 (again, neither are VIM-VAR steels). I don't actually grind the stuff so I just repeat what I'm hearing from the makers
 
Joe , if you ever find yourself passing thru Vegas , let me know I would really enjoy sitting down and having a drink or 2 with you. Thanks for the info , always looking to learn more.
 
The Edgecraft Corp. in Avondale, PA conducted tests years ago, on several different alloys prior to designing their own brand of cutlery.
Because they could duplicate a knife edge precisely time after time, the tests were probably more comprehensive than any previous attempts.
D-2 and 154-CM recieved very high marks in the edge durability department.
154-CM won out however mainly because of it's rust resistance versus D-2.
154-CM by the way was introcuced to the cutlery world by the great Bob Loveless who was impressed by it's tensile strength(1 million psi).
Needless to say, Chef's Choice Knives (Edgecraft) are made from 154-CM (now ATS-34).
Zeke
 
Simple tool steels that should be inespensive

O-1 is real easy to work, forgiving and still top notch when it comes to performance as a knife blade.
L-6 is an excellent steel mostly used for saw blades. It too will make a first class knife blade and could easily be picked up as scrap.
Neither are stainless, but any knife lover is unafraid of maintaining his tools properly anyway.
 
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