my favorite that I've worked with is a2 tool steel, its not stainless but if you get a knife (or make one) and give it a durable coat like gun kote or somthing you'd be fine as long as you rub down the edge with wd-40 from time to time, a2 is sturdy has good blade retention and its pretty easy to resharpen.
Grades of Tool Steel, what to look for.
- Thread starter FilJos
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Here is an interesting page covering many types of steel. I haven't viewed all the links, so no claim is made by me of useability for any purpose. 
That was a good post, Joe...kinda reminded me of myself answering a "what's the best gun" post!
I have a 5" bladed custom knife by my friend Shane Justice in 52100. I wanted an extremely tough but not over-large knife to carry while deployed, and that's what I got. I did cold blue it after seeing how quickly rust would form on it, though.
John
That was a good post, Joe...kinda reminded me of myself answering a "what's the best gun" post!
I have a 5" bladed custom knife by my friend Shane Justice in 52100. I wanted an extremely tough but not over-large knife to carry while deployed, and that's what I got. I did cold blue it after seeing how quickly rust would form on it, though.
John
Alvin in AZ
Member
Joe!
You ain't dead!
I'm readin along bored and all of a sudden a post by Joe Talmadge shows up.
I guess I got you confused with Mel Sorg? :/
How you been doing?
Alvin in AZ
You ain't dead!
I'm readin along bored and all of a sudden a post by Joe Talmadge shows up.
I guess I got you confused with Mel Sorg? :/
How you been doing?
Alvin in AZ
Crucible's newest is CPM-154 .This is the 154 CM chemistry but made with Crucible Particle Metallurgy methods. Custom makers have given very favorable reports on this steel. Finer carbides, more evenly distributed, and a cleaner steel than 154 CM ....The more complex the steel the more critical is the heat treatment .I would say that production knives of steels like S30V that chip in normal use have not been heat treated properly.....Joe is right , pick the steel for the use it will see.
Joe Talmadge
Member
- Joined
- Jan 9, 2003
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- 58
Hey Alvin! I've been following your exploits along as Cliff talks about them. You should boldly enter the 20th century and start posting on the other forums instead of just rec.knives j
BTW, apropros this thread, I'd encourage everyone to head to Alvin's homepage and check out the power hacksaw blade knife link. Talk about matching the steel, heat treat, geometry, and intended use ... perfect example of why just talking about which steels are good or bad without any other context is more of a popularity contest than useful info. You don't need to have a lot of knowledge to explain why that knife is so interesting, but if all you know is internet-based lists of good and bad steels, that knife may make no sense to you at all.
jBTW, apropros this thread, I'd encourage everyone to head to Alvin's homepage and check out the power hacksaw blade knife link. Talk about matching the steel, heat treat, geometry, and intended use ... perfect example of why just talking about which steels are good or bad without any other context is more of a popularity contest than useful info. You don't need to have a lot of knowledge to explain why that knife is so interesting, but if all you know is internet-based lists of good and bad steels, that knife may make no sense to you at all.
The Deer Hunter
Member
i would say a high carbon steel or titanium/steel/something else alloy. I dont like SS because it gets dull fast and is hard to sharpen.
Alvin in AZ
Member
Cliff Stamp posted something that was very interesting the other day about how people veiw stainless steel as some sort of "improved regular steel" like it's been run through some sort of "improvement process" instead of seeing it for what it really is...
"a cake recipe gone bad"
Bake a cake from scratch, using a good old time-tested recipe but instead add three to ten times too much of any one ingredient and see if it don't turn out just like stainless steel.
Guys like Colt46 and TheDeerHunter (sorry I forgot who else) know at least the symtoms of what I'm talking about, if not the metallurgy behind it.
The problem is... there is no real "upside" to telling the truth about stainless steel. :/ (I may not be around here much longer?
Stainless steel has all other steels whipped hands down, at two things...
1) corrosion resistance
2) knife sales
...and only those two things.
No kidding.
Alvin in AZ (just your basic stainless steel dis-respecter is all
ps- how's that, Joe? sound like old times?
"a cake recipe gone bad"
Bake a cake from scratch, using a good old time-tested recipe but instead add three to ten times too much of any one ingredient and see if it don't turn out just like stainless steel.
Guys like Colt46 and TheDeerHunter (sorry I forgot who else) know at least the symtoms of what I'm talking about, if not the metallurgy behind it.
The problem is... there is no real "upside" to telling the truth about stainless steel. :/ (I may not be around here much longer?
Stainless steel has all other steels whipped hands down, at two things...
1) corrosion resistance
2) knife sales
...and only those two things.
No kidding.
Alvin in AZ (just your basic stainless steel dis-respecter is all
ps- how's that, Joe? sound like old times?
JTW Jr.
Member
Cliff posted something interesting ?
Joe,
Thanks for not sitting this one out. You too Alvin.
Folks, listen to these fellas and you'll have done yourself a favor.
Ignore them and I doubt there's any hope for you at all anyway.
There is no one best anything and blade steel is especially subject to this unpleasant reality.
Best for what? Chopping? Slicing? Prying? Piercing? Rust resistance? Edge holding? No one steel does it all better than some other steel.
Like John said, asking what the best blade/blade steel is is very much like asking what the best firearm is. Handgun/Rifle/Carbine/Shotgun? Cocealable? Capacity? Accurate? Value? Rust resistance? When we ask that question we always understand that there is no one best firearm and that all of them are a mixture of compromises.
Same with steel/blades/knives. See?!?
Thanks for not sitting this one out. You too Alvin.
Folks, listen to these fellas and you'll have done yourself a favor.
Ignore them and I doubt there's any hope for you at all anyway.
There is no one best anything and blade steel is especially subject to this unpleasant reality.
Best for what? Chopping? Slicing? Prying? Piercing? Rust resistance? Edge holding? No one steel does it all better than some other steel.
Like John said, asking what the best blade/blade steel is is very much like asking what the best firearm is. Handgun/Rifle/Carbine/Shotgun? Cocealable? Capacity? Accurate? Value? Rust resistance? When we ask that question we always understand that there is no one best firearm and that all of them are a mixture of compromises.
Same with steel/blades/knives. See?!?
Alvin in AZ
Member
Cool thanks guys. (JoeT, JShirley, JTW Jr.,HSO)
(I don't know how to quote here)
First JTW Jr... You can call me Dr Frankenstein if you want I was the one that created that monster.
Doggonit I don't really want it to be an "us against them game", being a libertarian a guy can like stainless steel for a knife blade if he wants to, just know the truth about what's being given up for corrosion resistance and I'll be happy as a frog. That's all I really want out of this. Others want to play the game and Cliff will meet them head on.
JShirley... I figure you mean H11 but either way I'm not into tough knives. As far as knife makers go I'm a simpleton all I've ever cared about was edge holding and so it was easy for me to get that since industry has got all that worked out for me all I had to do was read it. My first knife was made from a broken power hacksaw blade I dug from the scrap pile. Broken's a good sign. Stainless steel was formulated to not corrode so easy and high speed steel was formulated to cut. How hard of a desicion is that when it comes to making a knife? Especially if you care about nothing other than edge holding so it'll cut? Later realized that HSS was great at taking an edge too.
H11, H13, S7, L6 those are the steels I'd look into if I were going to make a tough knife but for me L6 has got them beat because I can heat and cold treat that myself and get all it's got to offer. IMO A2 is better than O1 but I can't heat and cold treat A2 and get anymore out of it than I can from O1... with what I've got to work with.
1095 at 66+hrc cuts into stuff and holds its edge like a Hanson carbon steel tap from the hardware store or like a Nicholson file. O1 can't get that hard.
It's really a strange thing to get used to a knife like that then use a factory knife for something that the hard knife would cut no sweat and now this factory knife acts like it's softer than the stuff you're trying to cut. It's wierd, you just have to experience it to get it, I guess?
But yeah, H11 etc were formulated to cut stuff too like a giant sheer blade coming down =wham=. Sounds like a good "tough knife" steel to me.
HSO... I'm a firm believer in what you are saying and my extra hard knives aren't for everything. Depending on what a person cuts may not be good for anything.
Like I said it's easy for me and my single minded approach. If I need to hammer a knife along an exhaust pipe over-lap I get a junky factory knife, there's plenty of those out there I don't feel a need to make something like that. It's a hobby, I give my knives away and encourage others to make their own.
Right after rec.knives got started I was on there spewing my hardness-crap and Cliff was one of the first to take me serious. He did like I said to do, he went to the library and looked into what I was simply parroting back.
http://www.panix.com/~alvinj/graph1095.jpg
"Metallurgy Theory and Practice" by Dell K Allen (highly recommended ~$5)
That's the graph from a metallurgy book that made me realize a guy could make a knife from 1095, that he could heat treated himself and could be hard like a tap or file or power hacksaw blade. That's when I decided to rig up something to heat treat with. Heat treating makes pocket knife blade and spring replacement easy.
Joe... I took a metallurgy class I'm like edjikated and stuff now.
Old retired guy that'd studied metallurgy for 20 years as a hobby with nothing else to do... I just about drove the teacher nuts with questions, believe it?
Alvin in AZ
(JoeT, JShirley, JTW Jr.,HSO)(I don't know how to quote here)
First JTW Jr... You can call me Dr Frankenstein if you want I was the one that created that monster.
Doggonit I don't really want it to be an "us against them game", being a libertarian a guy can like stainless steel for a knife blade if he wants to, just know the truth about what's being given up for corrosion resistance and I'll be happy as a frog. That's all I really want out of this. Others want to play the game and Cliff will meet them head on.
JShirley... I figure you mean H11 but either way I'm not into tough knives. As far as knife makers go I'm a simpleton all I've ever cared about was edge holding and so it was easy for me to get that since industry has got all that worked out for me all I had to do was read it. My first knife was made from a broken power hacksaw blade I dug from the scrap pile. Broken's a good sign.
Stainless steel was formulated to not corrode so easy and high speed steel was formulated to cut. How hard of a desicion is that when it comes to making a knife? Especially if you care about nothing other than edge holding so it'll cut? Later realized that HSS was great at taking an edge too. H11, H13, S7, L6 those are the steels I'd look into if I were going to make a tough knife but for me L6 has got them beat because I can heat and cold treat that myself and get all it's got to offer. IMO A2 is better than O1 but I can't heat and cold treat A2 and get anymore out of it than I can from O1... with what I've got to work with.
1095 at 66+hrc cuts into stuff and holds its edge like a Hanson carbon steel tap from the hardware store or like a Nicholson file. O1 can't get that hard.
It's really a strange thing to get used to a knife like that then use a factory knife for something that the hard knife would cut no sweat and now this factory knife acts like it's softer than the stuff you're trying to cut. It's wierd, you just have to experience it to get it, I guess?
But yeah, H11 etc were formulated to cut stuff too like a giant sheer blade coming down =wham=. Sounds like a good "tough knife" steel to me.
HSO... I'm a firm believer in what you are saying and my extra hard knives aren't for everything. Depending on what a person cuts may not be good for anything.
Like I said it's easy for me and my single minded approach. If I need to hammer a knife along an exhaust pipe over-lap I get a junky factory knife, there's plenty of those out there I don't feel a need to make something like that. It's a hobby, I give my knives away and encourage others to make their own.
Right after rec.knives got started I was on there spewing my hardness-crap and Cliff was one of the first to take me serious. He did like I said to do, he went to the library and looked into what I was simply parroting back.
http://www.panix.com/~alvinj/graph1095.jpg
"Metallurgy Theory and Practice" by Dell K Allen (highly recommended ~$5)
That's the graph from a metallurgy book that made me realize a guy could make a knife from 1095, that he could heat treated himself and could be hard like a tap or file or power hacksaw blade. That's when I decided to rig up something to heat treat with.
Heat treating makes pocket knife blade and spring replacement easy.Joe... I took a metallurgy class I'm like edjikated and stuff now.
Old retired guy that'd studied metallurgy for 20 years as a hobby with nothing else to do... I just about drove the teacher nuts with questions, believe it?
Alvin in AZ
He means H1 !! H1 was designed as a blade steel that is hardened at the steel mill. It is stainless steel ,NOT a tool steel. All the maker has to do is grind it . It doesn't make the best blade but is very corrosion resistant and best as a dive knife ....For tough steels L6 and S7 are very good.Other tools steels making good blades are O1, A2 ,D2 [stainless or at least semi-stainless ]. ..The more complex steels [such as D2 and other stainless etc ]are not for amateurs as the heat treating requires precise control of time and temperature !!!!
Alvin, thanks for the reply. I did mean H1, but thanks for clarifying your position. As I understand it, for your knives, cuttin's most important.
From Sal Glesser on BladeForums.com:
H-1 is a Japanese steel so the "H" designations for a USA steel would not correlate.
We've done extensive testing with H-1 for the past year plus. We were disappointd that Benchmade beat us to the market with H-1, but I have to give them credit for doing their homework. The steel is a break through in corrosion resistance. It is another "nitrogen added" steel like CPM-S30V, X15Tn and Infi. It is a precipitation hardening steel. Spyderco has at least one model (Delica) coming out this year made with H-1.
In "Q-Fog" testing, H-1 ranked with Cobalt based materials such as Talonite, Dendritic cobalt and stellite 6K. There was NO rust. Much better than even 440C.
Edge testing indicates cutting ability comparable to AUS-6 / AUS-8. Edge retention was not as good as Talontite or Dendritic Cobalt but was certainly acceptable for a good working knife. Cost is much less than Cobalt based materials.
John
From Sal Glesser on BladeForums.com:
H-1 is a Japanese steel so the "H" designations for a USA steel would not correlate.
We've done extensive testing with H-1 for the past year plus. We were disappointd that Benchmade beat us to the market with H-1, but I have to give them credit for doing their homework. The steel is a break through in corrosion resistance. It is another "nitrogen added" steel like CPM-S30V, X15Tn and Infi. It is a precipitation hardening steel. Spyderco has at least one model (Delica) coming out this year made with H-1.
In "Q-Fog" testing, H-1 ranked with Cobalt based materials such as Talonite, Dendritic cobalt and stellite 6K. There was NO rust. Much better than even 440C.
Edge testing indicates cutting ability comparable to AUS-6 / AUS-8. Edge retention was not as good as Talontite or Dendritic Cobalt but was certainly acceptable for a good working knife. Cost is much less than Cobalt based materials.
John
Alvin in AZ
Member
Thanks John
You guys gotta know I'm not up on the latest stainless steels and as far as knife models go, a Buck 110 is a new fangled gadget.
I have a stack of metallurgy books some are good old ones and several are "tool steel only" books.
Mete mentioned O1 and A2 check this out.
http://www.panix.com/~alvinj/graphA2vsO1.jpg
To get A2 that good it needs to be held a half hour at ~1760F after being ramped up from 1200F.
To really kick butt with A2 it'll need to be cooled to at least -120F without allowing it to stop going down in temperature (and so stabilize the retained austenite). 2 points HRC can be gained in the cold treatment with -no- reduction in toughness. Cool huh?
I can't do that tho. :/ I have the stuff just need to put it together and buy a Pt/Pt+13%Rh thermocouple. $$
Alvin in AZ
You guys gotta know I'm not up on the latest stainless steels and as far as knife models go, a Buck 110 is a new fangled gadget.
I have a stack of metallurgy books some are good old ones and several are "tool steel only" books.
Mete mentioned O1 and A2 check this out.
http://www.panix.com/~alvinj/graphA2vsO1.jpg
To get A2 that good it needs to be held a half hour at ~1760F after being ramped up from 1200F.
To really kick butt with A2 it'll need to be cooled to at least -120F without allowing it to stop going down in temperature (and so stabilize the retained austenite). 2 points HRC can be gained in the cold treatment with -no- reduction in toughness. Cool huh?
I can't do that tho. :/ I have the stuff just need to put it together and buy a Pt/Pt+13%Rh thermocouple. $$
Alvin in AZ
Alvin in AZ
Member
Mete, for sure. And that's something I'd really like to see is some torsional impact test graphs for some of the stainless steels. Like where clunky old L6 is compared to a CPM stainless for example.
Alvin in AZ
And that's something I'd really like to see is some torsional impact test graphs for some of the stainless steels. Like where clunky old L6 is compared to a CPM stainless for example. Alvin in AZ
Alvin,
Are you getting bainite out of your L6?
Are you getting bainite out of your L6?
Alvin in AZ
Member
HSO,
Cool question.
No Bainite. :/ The hardest and strongest fine-martensite I can.
I don't make "tough" knives, I make the best edge holders I possibly can. Throw the baby out with the bath water edge takers and edge holders.
L6 drawn at 275F for an hour after a cold treatment can get you 65+hrc.
Yeah sounds crazy but it's true. BTDT and tested the hardness and thought something was the matter with my testing methods at first. Metallurgy teacher pointed me toward a book I hadn't read yet.
http://panix.com/~alvinj/graphL6.jpg
Edge holding has to do with strength too.
That's why stainless steel can't hold and extra acute edge, it's weak stuff compared to what it could be... L6 or 8670-modified.
Alvin in AZ
Cool question.
No Bainite. :/ The hardest and strongest fine-martensite I can.
I don't make "tough" knives, I make the best edge holders I possibly can. Throw the baby out with the bath water edge takers and edge holders.
L6 drawn at 275F for an hour after a cold treatment can get you 65+hrc.
Yeah sounds crazy but it's true. BTDT and tested the hardness and thought something was the matter with my testing methods at first.
Metallurgy teacher pointed me toward a book I hadn't read yet. http://panix.com/~alvinj/graphL6.jpg
Edge holding has to do with strength too.
That's why stainless steel can't hold and extra acute edge, it's weak stuff compared to what it could be... L6 or 8670-modified.
Alvin in AZ
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