Grand jury blames gun (Glock) in trooper's shooting of suspect

[Waitone]

Glock--5 lb. trigger pull at about 1"

1911--5 lb. trigger pull at ?????

Whaddday thimk they'd do with a 1911.

Another example of an inanimate object exercising personal responsibility.

 

[artherd]

If he was shot, without justification as it says, and had survived the first shot, would he have been allowed to shoot back?

By all means.

This cop should have been rightfully SHOT on the spot. It would have been legitimite self-defense.

Funny thing is, I've a Glock with the factory 3.5lb connector. (all installed by Glock, prior to my purchase.) It is NOT light enough to go bang by doing anything but intentionally pulling the trigger! 3.5lbs is still quite a lot of force, and Glock triggers have a LOT of travel/takeup.

There's literally no way this cop didn't pull the trigger, as the Glocks at 'half cock/cocked' don't have enough energy to detonate a primer. You HAVE to provide this energy in the form of trigger takeup.

Then again, I've seen NDs with a Beretta 92, with about a 16lb DA pull...

 

[FishOrMan]

Well, with that question answered... we have entered a whole new world...

Should the gun carrying citizen who might have witnesses this event also defended this man's life? (Let's not answer that question... it leads us down a very, very, VERY scary path!)

 

[Baba Louie]

There's literally no way this cop didn't pull the trigger, as the Glocks at 'half cock/cocked' don't have enough energy to detonate a primer. You HAVE to provide this energy in the form of trigger takeup.

artherd artherd artherd, cain't cha read boy? The MAN done said that there furrin' gun "encouraged a loose trigger finger". I reckon down in old Bammy they just gotsta "Tighten Up" them there trigger fingers... no wait... that'd probably make it go full auto or sumpin.
I'm gonna go have a word with my Glocks and see what they're planning on doing about this "encouragement of loose trigger fingers" and such. Sounds like a conspiracy to me. Maybe even a... a movement.

Baldwin County James B. "Jimmy" Johnson told the grand jury he would never use a weapon with a trigger pull that light.

I just wanna know who would name their kid Baldwin County James B. "Jimmy" Johnson and why does his name and quote appear in the story?

On a side note: While I expect agency admin to back up their troopers, I really really wonder how in the name of Mike did the GJ decide that this particular line of BS would cut the mustard unless they feared some backlash by fellow troopers or a passel of vicious lawyer types just waiting to go for the gold... or both.
Truly a tragic comedy of errors and baloney.

Hell, get em all 12# DAO revolvers with manual safeties and one bullet to carry in their front shirt pocket... -OR- Get 'em some serious training time at the range in stress-fire mode, no matter the cost. Repeat as required.

Sorry artherd. I ain't poking fun at you, cause we both know you're 1000% right.

 

[Garrum]

Should the gun carrying citizen who might have witnesses this event also defended this man's life? (Let's not answer that question... it leads us down a very, very, VERY scary path!)

Think about it. If you had witnessed this, you would have seen a cop order a person out of passenger seat of the patrol car at gun point, and then shoot the person without provocation. To hell with the guy he just killed in front of me, I would be worried that I would be next so there wouldn't be any witnesses to the execution. That's fear for my life, as well as fear for the guy that just got shot for no reason.

 

[Sgt Stevo]

I went through POST back in 92. The fire arms qual, was done from the holster. BUT, they taught us at Hancoock in Santa Maria, were I went through. Too keep our finger out of the guard. Until we were going to shoot.

The holster was most likly a level three of some type. I wont explain how it works here. But you have a couple of different things to do, Too release your gun. But there is nothing to hold down or whatever. Thats silly...........

 

[artherd]

Baba- absolutely no offence taken at all! (rather ammusing I might add. And I agree with you 100% I too wonder who the hell "jimmy" is, and why he's qualified to make comments to the press about the suitability of law-enforcement gear used by over 60% of LE?)

Think about it. If you had witnessed this, you would have seen a cop order a person out of passenger seat of the patrol car at gun point, and then shoot the person without provocation. To hell with the guy he just killed in front of me, I would be worried that I would be next so there wouldn't be any witnesses to the execution. That's fear for my life, as well as fear for the guy that just got shot for no reason.

YES, it is a very scary situation. However it's exactly the situation that the founders envisioned when they crafted ammendment #2. It's not there for hunters, and it's not there for plinking. It's to guard against the unthinkable.

Unfortunately, the unthinkable aparently happened April 7th in Bay Minette, Alabama.



What's even scarier, imagine the hypothetical trial for this citizen/hero (could be any one of us.) It'd make the Martha Stewart trial look fair and unbiased.

Now compare that to this murderer (officer/shooter) walking away?

 

[Baba Louie]

The holster was most likly a level three of some type. I wont explain how it works here. But you have a couple of different things to do, Too release your gun. But there is nothing to hold down or whatever. Thats silly...........

Sgt, I'd thought about the holster thing too for a half minute and came to the realization that unless this young feller's face was right down next to Trooper Angel's holster (and I don't EVEN want to think about those implications), that said trooper had probably cleared leather and raised his "loose trigger finger encouraging" weapon up to, oh, say, shoot him through the neck height before "the pistol went off".

The grand jury issued a report encouraging the state to review whether that type of pistol should be used in state service.

Even tho' I don't have ALL the facts of what occured, and I wasn't there, and I typically refrain from bashing LEO... I might be predisposed to substitute the word "Individual" for the word "pistol" in the above quote. But as I said, I'm loathe to monday morning QB'ing and a poor judge of proper police procedure.

"It appears that the trooper reacted based upon his training with the weapon issued to him by the state," the report said.

Training, huh? Might want to re-evaluate that training program a scosh.

Then again, maybe it's a lesson for all youngsters who drive around without a D/L in a "borrowed" car with a broken tail light. It's a cold cruel world we live in Master Jack.

 

[alan]

I don't know what the law inm alsabvama says about driving a stolen car, absend a driveres l;isence, the car allegedly haaving a bad tail/brake light, however I seriously doubt that ANY of these offenses are capitol crimes.

On a great many police cruisers, one sees something to the effect of To Protect and Serve. Wonder what the emblem, if any, on Alabama State POlice cruisers says.

While the trigger arrangement on Glock pistols might well leave something to be desired, I personally do not care for Glocks, it appears that there was a much greater problem with this particular officer, or the training arrangements utilized in Alabama.

 

[Sgt Stevo]

BABA

LOL, It took me a minute. But I get it. Your killin me!

 

[No4Mk1*]

So the grand jury thinks it is ok to point a loaded gun at someone, put your finger on the trigger, and pull rearward with 5 pounds of force?

 

[Treylis]

You guys realize, of course, that the chance of there being anyone on that grand jury who knew the slightest thing about firearms is virtually nil. Sigh.

 

[Nightfall]

I really can't believe this. A police officer shoots an unarmed man who isn't resisting arrest in the neck, and a jury finds the Glock guilty? Officer dumb arse gets his job back, a precedent for suing Glock is set, and America sinks a little deeper into the Pit of Stupidityâ„¢. Can you imagine what would have happened if a CHL holder had shot an unarmed man in the neck? I can guarantee you a jury wouldn't blame his gun for "encouraging a loose trigger finger". I can guarantee you the antis would harp on it until the end of days. I can guarantee you Glock would still get bad press, and I can guarantee you that person wouldn't see the light of day for a good, long time.

But hey, he was a cop, so it's all okay. Standing Wolf, what's that comment? "Yeah, but we're not living in a police state." Just a state of mind blowing idiocy. *sigh*

 

[artherd]

How come Glock always takes the bashing when there's a million other pistols out there with 5-lb or less triggers?

Agree with your assesment, from the couch, the only defective part in that whole patrol car was the nut behind the wheel.

While the trigger arrangement on Glock pistols might well leave something to be desired, I personally do not care for Glocks, it appears that there was a much greater problem with this particular officer, or the training arrangements utilized in Alabama.

 

[jonptoms]

How come Glock always takes the bashing when there's a million other pistols out there with 5-lb or less triggers?

Because there are more of them out there (glocks).

I bet the BGs are thrilled that cops carry guns with a hard/long DA pull so they jerk their first shot - gives the BG a much better chance to get the first hit. BGs don't have a department policy to hamstring them on what they carry.

 

[artherd]

Glock--5 lb. trigger pull at about 1"

1911--5 lb. trigger pull at ?????

Whaddday thimk they'd do with a 1911.

Probally use it safely and effectively, like LAPD SWAT does.

Oh, nevermind, wait, it'd hop up out of it's holster on it's own volition, then go full-auto and kill a bus full of nuns and bunnies, while it's officer slept.

 

[Art Eatman]

Been messin' with handguns for a long time. Been around a lot of people shooting handguns. Done the IPSC thing and all that. Been around a fair number of LEOs, through the years.

Based on what the news articles said, I blame the PD's administration for the shooting. Even a self-taught pistolero benefits from proper training and correction of mistakes in procedure. Absent proper training? Foolishness and tragedy.

As to the Grand Jury, ignorance usually triumphs, and in this instance my opinion is that it did indeed triumph.

It occurs to me that if IPSC guys can run around and go all high speed with their race guns with 2# triggers without AD problems, there's little excuse for an AD with a 5# trigger. Again, no proper training.

Art

 

[CrudeGT]

BAY MINETTE, Ala. (AP) -- A grand jury cleared a state trooper in the killing of a suspected car thief, saying the officer's gun encouraged a loose trigger finger.

'psst, hey, officer'
"what's that, who's talking to me?"
'It's me, you're glock, hey, pull my trigger... I really want you to pull me trigger'

I want a gun that talks to me, it'd be a little more calming than the voices in my head.

The Baldwin County grand jury placed the blame for the shooting on the service pistol used by state troopers, which is easier to fire than some other weapons used by law enforcement officers.

yeah, this gun requires the user to apply pressure to the trigger, while other guns require the user to... um... No, actually they're all about the same.

When Rodriguez stopped Taylor's car for a broken tail light, he put Taylor in the passenger's seat of the patrol car after Taylor couldn't produce a valid driver's license. Then Rodriguez found out the car was reported stolen.

Rodriguez ordered Taylor out of the car and pulled the pistol out of its holster, which is standard procedure, the grand jury said.

Two things occur to me while reading these lines:

1) Isn't it procedure to search the individual before placing him/her in the patrol car?

2)wouldn't that mean that the officer KNEW that Taylor was unarmed, and that pulling his own gun was NOT procedure. Unless of course he didn't follow that procedure either.

"You're under a lot of stress. ... Your adrenaline is running," Johnson said in an interview. "You tighten up your hands. It's not that hard for a weapon to be discharged."

UNLESS YOUR FINGER IS NO WHERE NEAR THE TRIGGER. In which case it's pretty hard for the gun to discharge.

This whole story has 'missing info' OR 'horrible training/procedure' written all over it. I get the feeling something happened when Taylor got out of the car that we aren't being told of.

 

[PATH]

Remember the rule that says you should keep your finger off the trigger until you have made the decision to destroy that which is in front of you.
The officer PULLED THE TRIGGER!!! Glocks have a habit of not going off until someone PULLS THE TRIGGER!!!

The officer put his finger on the TRIGGER AND PULLED!!! The officer as at fault not the Glock. I have yet to see a Glock of any type go off of its own voilition. NYPD has a monster pull somewhere in the neighborhood of 15 pounds as I recall. There are still incidents where the officer has an ND.

Draw duty firearm but first ENGAGE BRAIN!!!!!

This smacks of passing responsibility from the state pure and simple!

 

[atek3]

This thread is a whole big bunch of LEO-bashers. Where are the boy's in blue to tell us how we "just don't understand".

atek3

 

[CrudeGT]

Let's see what rules the officer didn't follow

1.) every gun is always loaded (doesn't quite apply)
2.) keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to pull it (yep, screwed that one up.)
3.) Only point the barrel at what you want to destroy (the gun should not have been pointed at Taylor until there was a threat, the cop botched this one too)
4.) KNow your target and what's beyond it (he knew the target, the problem was that Taylor should not have been a target until there was a threat, see rule #3)

This cops needs to be kicked off the force and needs to have his firearm privileges revoked.

 

[Obiwan]

The real problem here...

Andy let Barney put the bullets in his gun....

 

[Steel]

I would like to hear Colonel Cooper on this one