Grease on 30 Carbine Bullets

[M2 Carbine]

One story of which comes to mind was a guy who insisted up and down that they shot the 600 yard line with their M1 carbines to qualify.

We did shoot 500 yards to qualify with the M1 53 years ago.
The M1 Garand.

No, no one shot the M1 Carbine at 600 yards to qualify.
I never qualified with the Carbine. Matter of fact I never even saw a M1 Carbine (USMC 1955-1959)

 

[Bwana John]

So you go ahead and lube up the projectiles on your 30.06s, 30 carbines, 7.62x54R, 8mm Mausers. 7.62 NATO, 6.5 Swedes and whatever else you got. I got some ocean side property in Kansas I want to sell you.

And I submit that if you intend to shoot ANY of those calibers using LEAD bullets you better fill the GREASE GROOVES on the bullets with grease. A nice GLIDING metal gas-check would be nice to

We all agree the M1 Carbine was NOT intended for lubed cases or projectiles with standard ammunition. (Because it will gum up the works)

But to not understand:banghead: that MANY firearms modern and antique ARE and have been intended to be used with lubed cases and lubed projectiles (ie .22RF, lead bullets in modern pistols and rifles, muzzleloaders w. lubed patch or self lubing sabot, cap & ball pistols, heavy crew served weapons, molybdenum coated match bullets......) makes me think someone in Kansas thinks they are sitting next to the ocean.

 

[mongo4567]

The Swedish Ljungman AG42b in 6.5x55 was designed to be fired with lubed cartridges, here is a link to a translated manual: http://www.nazarian.no/images/wep/181_agmanual.pdf

The M1 carbine was not...

 

[Slamfire]

The Swedish Ljungman AG42b in 6.5x55 was designed to be fired with lubed cartridges, here is a link to a translated manual: http://www.nazarian.no/images/wep/181_agmanual.pdf

The M1 carbine was not

This the section you wanted to reference:?

Lube the magazine with # 042 lubricant. Cartridges and action should be lubed when loading the rifle.
During longer firing pauses the chamber should be cleaned with the tool and lubed with # 042 lubricant.

 

[lencac]

How many of you lube your bullets?

 

[Slamfire]

How many of you lube your bullets?

I heavily grease Minie Balls.

Cast lead bullets are greased.

Factory .22LR, the bullets are externally greased at the factory.

 

[lencac]

Lead mini balls?
Let me rephrase this.
How many of you lube your jacketed bullets in your high powered rifles.
Isn't there a thread somewhere for "old and slow" for the guys who are still living in the past with lead ?

 

[Bwana John]

Along with the .22, cast, muzzleloading, and moly lubed match jacketed bullets in high velocity modern rifles, I also HEAVILY lube the entire belt and cartridges on a M-2 .50 BMG I run for the rental booth at The Big Sandy MG Shoot.

The M-2 is a rewelded rewatted DEWAT (a reactivated, DEactivated WAr Trophy) that some 3rd grader learned to weld on, and then the welds were smoothed out by a drunk monkey with a grinder. It runs just fine if you have a quart of 30 weight to pour on the action and belt, otherwise you cant even charge the thing.

I know the M1919s in .30-06/7.62/8mm and the Maxims in 8mm/7.62x54R at the shoot also run better with lightly lubed ammo.

 

[lencac]

You see there is always the exception. Some obscure ancient thing. "well back in the day" .... yeah yeah. But not one of you is going to say that they lube the jacketed bullets say for the 300 Win mag or 30.06 are you. Why? Because that would be feakin stupid!!!!
You know back in the day the greatest minds thought the earth was flat too. But we have learned some things since then. Like if you are lubing the jacketed bullets for your high powered rifle you might be a freakin moron. :banghead:

 

[Bwana John]

But not one of you is going to say that they lube the jacketed bullets say for the 300 Win mag or 30.06 are you. Why? Because that would be feakin stupid!!!!

I said it in my last post,

I HAVE used molybdenum lubed jacketed bullets in high velocity modern rifle cartridges, and so does MANY match shooters.

 

[Bwana John]

You can lead a horse in Kansas to water, but he wont drink cause he thinks the water is salty.

 

[lencac]

Obviously not talking about moly coated bullets, duh. Were talking about putting oil or grease on the jacketed bullets. Hello :banghead:

 

[Bwana John]

So - molybdenum disulphide is now not a lubricant?

Dude, you started with "name one", then it was "modern shouldered rifle", "then military rifle calibers", then "high velocity rifles", then "only petrolium based lubricants"..... It appears YOU are the one looking for exceptions.

Carefull, the high tide might ruin that corn crop.

 

[Slamfire]

Obviously not talking about moly coated bullets, duh. Were talking about putting oil or grease on the jacketed bullets. Hello

Moly is a dry film lubricant. I have picked up moly lubed ammo that the Marine Rifle Team used, probably the AMU tried it.

Way back in 1921, when the Army created the bore obstruction called "tin can" ammo, bullet jackets of that era fouled, and fouled badly. That is why shooters were dipping their bullets in automotive greases. Worked fine, I have found nothing in the literature warning about "dangerous" pressures or cracked receivers until the 1921 Tin can ammo.

Once everyone got the knack to create bullets that did not foul, well the "need" for a bullet lubricant on jacketed bullets went away.

(Now that I remember, I dipped at least a thousand 303 Iraqi ball ammo bullets in grease cause the jackets fouled so badly. Grease did reduce the fouling.

That ammo was made so poorly, primers pierced on dry ammo. So I don't know if I raised pressures "dangerously". I do know I cut my bore cleaning time down from days, to a couple of strokes with a bore brush.)

Moly lube came around, and not being petroluem based, it does not pick up dirt or grit as easily as grease. Hundreds of thousands of bullets have been fired, maybe millions with moly lube. And nothing evil happened. No "dangerously" raised pressures.

Moly lube is just another thing to go wrong, so I don't use it.

The M-2 is a rewelded rewatted DEWAT (a reactivated, DEactivated WAr Trophy) that some 3rd grader learned to weld on, and then the welds were smoothed out by a drunk monkey with a grinder. It runs just fine if you have a quart of 30 weight to pour on the action and belt, otherwise you cant even charge the thing.

Information like this just causes cognitive dissonance in the minds of the Orthodox. So while their eyes read it, their brains don’t register it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance

 

[hhmorant]

This is an interesting discussion. I looked through Hatcher's Notebook, and he mentions pressure-testing 1920 National Match ammo. With the bullet and case neck lubricated with vaseline, pressures went from an average 51,335 PSI dry to 59,000 greased. With the bullet, case, and chamber lubricated, pressure went to 71,154 PSI.

There must be some effect, at least with heavy grease.

 

[Slamfire]

This is an interesting discussion. I looked through Hatcher's Notebook, and he mentions pressure-testing 1920 National Match ammo. With the bullet and case neck lubricated with vaseline, pressures went from an average 51,335 PSI dry to 59,000 greased. With the bullet, case, and chamber lubricated, pressure went to 71,154 PSI

Instrumentation error. That what I believe they had.

Howe’s book has the only documented information on this test. It is in
“The Modern Gun Smith, Howe, Vol 1”, 1954 revised edition. Pg. 379, Figure 154, Lubricated vs. unlubricated case pressure curves.

Everyone involved in these tests died decades ago. All we have are a few writings from dead people, and the misguided theories of Gunwriters from the 60's, 70's, 80's, and 90's. I believe this is an example of what happens when you don’t have an independent tester. When organizations own the testers, the test individuals are under organizational pressures to prove organizational theories. This is a problem common to crime labs which are particularly helpful in finding results favorable for their fellow law enforcement buddies.

The Ordinance Department conducted experiments to prove that greased ammunition caused the blowups. A reading of Hatcher’s book shows that the Ordinance Department totally ignored the cold soldering to the case necks of the tin coated bullets as contributor. Tin was migrating from the bullet jacket into the tin/copper case neck.

Hatcher reported this uncritically. Ignoring evidence that cold soldering was the primary problem. Remember reading his paragraph when a NCO showed him a case neck and shoulder attached to a tin can bullet? The whole of which had been fired in a rifle, and the case had ripped off below the shoulder. That should have been proof positive of cold soldering, that cold soldering was creating a bore obstruction. But to Hatcher, it was just proof of high pressure. No cause and effect.

We owe Hatcher a lot. However you do not get to be a Major General, and you don’t get free bee’s from your old organization after retirement, by pointing out the stupidity of the Army. In all of his writings, back to the 20’s, Hatcher is 100% pro Ordnance Department. Right or wrong, 100% positive about the Ordnance Department. He is never critical of it at all.

Captain Crossman, a popular contemporary gunwriter, was sarcastic and critical in print and I don’t think he ever got beyond Captain. He committed suicide in the late 30’s. Lesson to learn about career advancement in organizations. Be like Hatcher. Positive, positive, positive.

Phil Sharpe, in his book Complete Guide to Handloading, discusses just how sensitive to friction was that era’s pressure testing equipment.

What I believe happened is that grease was blown around inside their copper crusher pressure testing equipment giving false readings. But the Ordnance testers got the results they were looking for, that made their bosses happy, and that was that.

 

[lencac]

Ok, you guys win .................. you wore me down. Go ahead and lube away ........ I dare you. :banghead: You don't have a hair on your behinds if you don't...... sissys
But for you Bwana, are you always in the habit of putting words in peoples mouth?

 

[Oohrah]

Sounds like apples and oranges. There is a difference between petro/oil and other lubricants like moly and teflon. I know that the moly will build up and worst to clean up than jacket fouling. There are many ways to lubricate. I believe that 22s are a wax type. Many of the lubes are to prevent something, such as cast bullets to prevent leading especially if the bullet isn't one with a gas check. Black powder can even be spit to enable a ball to be seated when powder fouled. This example however doesn't cover the other example due to the fact no brass cartridge is involved to hold the bullet and powder together as a unit.
I also served in the Marines from Nov 57 to Nov 65. I had the oportunity to fire all the weapons of that era up to and including the air cooled 30s,Model 60,Garands, BAR, Thompson 45 Auto, 1911A1, M1A1,M 16, and even the old Model 70 Winnie, scoped, and in the 30-06 caliber. The carbine was not on the list, but basically a semi auto with a pistol classed ammo. NONE OF THE ABOVE WAS EVER WITNESSED OR WAS IT ENCOURAGED TO LUBE ANY AMMO.: Sorry, depending I think if minimum chamber vs enlarged near max, and the amount of free bore. Cartridges near max loadings will increase chamber pressures as will heat.
All the semi autos were designe to operate at a certain pressure curve based on the type of powder, and bullet weight. Yeah, dangerous pressure will operate the action, but it also batters the parts until something has to give. Usually operating rods, bolts, and some others that are not designed to repeated at these pressures. I think it was heavy bullets with slow burning powder messes Garrands up pretty rapidly.
None of the above firearms call for lubed bullets of any kind. I would think a build up at gas ports would probably well screw up functioning. Full autos generally have a pretty generous chamber size and may call for a small base sizing die to allow reloads to fit the normal chambers.
Entitled to your own thinking, but I will never fire full power loads that have been lubed an oil or grease on the outside. I have seen it done to fire form cases for some wildcat cartridges like the Gibbs line. Where the case body tapper is removed and the shoulder is moved forward leaving a 308 length neck on a 30-06 case. These were much reduced loads. Full loads due to headspace will give a case separation without a false neck expansion or a slightly pulled bullet forwarded a bit for a crush fit.
Bottomline is I'm not going take the chance on using oil products the guns were not designed for. I own five carbines of various manufacture. None will have oiled cartridges fired in them.

 

[lipadj46]

Just goes to show people will argue about anything. Anyone arguing that putting a dollop of grease on a modern jacketed bullet is an OK practice is just being argumentative. Even if it does not cause a dangerous jump in pressure (I assume this would depend on the temp of the bore, the drop point of the grease and the size of the dollop) cleaning scorched grease from your barrel I would assume is not a fun thing.

 

[Slamfire]

I also served in the Marines from Nov 57 to Nov 65. I had the oportunity to fire all the weapons of that era up to and including the air cooled 30s,Model 60,Garands, BAR, Thompson 45 Auto, 1911A1, M1A1,M 16, and even the old Model 70 Winnie, scoped, and in the 30-06 caliber. The carbine was not on the list, but basically a semi auto with a pistol classed ammo. NONE OF THE ABOVE WAS EVER WITNESSED OR WAS IT ENCOURAGED TO LUBE ANY AMMO.:

Thank you for your service to our country.

Oils and greases are messy lubricants and were designed out of semi and full automatic mechanisms by the time you get to WWII.

Dry film lubricants, such as Moly, teflon, are less messy. The US tested teflon and wax as case lubricants, found function was better. I suspect the added cost was not worth bothering with.

If the US military ever makes a conversion over to steel cased ammunition I predict that cases will have some sort lubricative hard film/coating.

I am aware of only one front line weapon type, currently in service, that requires case lubrication. That is the HK roller bolt series of rifles.

Examining a captured Russian machine gun, the Germans saw chamber flutes. This was the solution to their roller bolt breech friction problems. The roller bolt mechanism opens so quickly and so early in the pressure curve, the ammunition has to be lubricated in some fashion or the case rims will be torn off. The solution turned out to be chamber flutes. The front 2/3 of the case is effectively floated, by propellant pressure, off the chamber. This reduces breech friction and allows the case to be extracted whole.

Brassey's calls it "gas lubrication".

The limitation with this is that if the flutes get clogged, the rifle will not cycle. You can read any number of posts where people used surplus ammo with tar coatings in these roller bolts, and the tar clogged the flutes.

Still, the HK91 rifle is in service all over the world.

I like my PTR 91

 

[Nano-Oil.com]

I would not lubricate the bullet and absolutely not the casing, if you have to for satisfying what ever reasoning that you have, do it to every so many rounds but not to all of them.
one of my reasons: we wanted to find out if our lubricant would increase muzzle velocity and a radar was used, after applying directly to the first bullet and not the subsequent cartridges, we observed:
the first round fired was below the baselines second was slightly above and subsequent noticibly above baselines,
lubrication can actually increase friction,
reducing friction in the chamber by lubricating the casing is an absolete no no ! (unless the armament is designed for that) the potential for a catastrophic failure is too high a price to pay, the momentary expension and contraction of the casing in the chamber is a feature necessary to reduce impact of the breech while maintaining momentary propelling pressure.

 

[Slamfire]

one of my reasons: we wanted to find out if our lubricant would increase muzzle velocity and a radar was used, after applying directly to the first bullet and not the subsequent cartridges, we observed:
the first round fired was below the baselines second was slightly above and subsequent noticibly above baselines, lubrication can actually increase friction,

Heck if I know what you were measuring. The moly lube guys claim that their grease actually reduces pressure and increases velocity.

the momentary expension and contraction of the casing in the chamber is a feature necessary to reduce impact of the breech while maintaining momentary propelling pressure.

Chamber peening will occur if the cartridge is too short for the chamber. It will occurr dry cases or lubricated cases.

Take a look at advanced primer ignition and how the Becker 20mm had to use grease to function.

Attached is a picture of the HK91 chamber. It uses gas lubrication, a concept fully developed since WWII. With gas lubrication you don't need greases or oils. Those lubricants have been designed out of small arms.

A HK91 uses the same 308 NATO standard ammo that is used in the M14, FAL, etc. The breech pressures are the same. But with the HK91 breech friction is less and that helps make the HK a very simple and reliable weapon.

 

[Nano-Oil.com]

We were measuring muzzle velocity, and the point was in reply to the original post that suggested putting a dab of grease on the bullet itself,
So, over lubrication will induce friction, if you apply the lubricant then wipe off per your cleaning protocol than yet as you say I agree that anti friction lube actually reduces pressure and increases velocity as we saw on our radar.

 

[jeepguy]

could this have been done becuse of the extreme cold to keep the mags from freezing up? i have never done it though.

 

[jkingrph]

The high quality Swiss GP-11 ammo, for their Model 1911, and K-31, has a ring of a waxy like material around the case neck.