LemmyCaution
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- Jun 4, 2008
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- 897
Pity the sheepdog that mistakes me for a sheep under his charge.
Great definition of "Sheepdog"
- Thread starter Cmdr. Gravez0r
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Gunship69
Member
hso hit the nail on the head. Sheepdogs are those who's life calling is to protect. CCW holders are most likely "sheep with fangs". It does not all boil down to guns though. Being a Sheepdog is a way of life. Not guns physically defending people, but helping them also.
First let me say that I don't necessarily agree with the analogy made in the op.
Now let me say that I am disgusted that some of you on here who have the means and/or capability to protect others but still have the willfull intention of letting others (possibly my children) suffer while you watch. Those of you who wouldn't lift a finger to help others in need are not sheep, sheep-dogs or even wolves, you are snakes. I pray for your families that they never need assistance while you are not there, that they don't have other snakes like you around them who would just watch them parish.
I don't want to be in a gunfight anymore than anyone else...I've seen what guns do to human flesh and it's quite horrifying. I don't carry a gun with anxious anticipation for the chance to shoot someone. I am, however, mentally ready and prepared to defend my family, myself, and if the need arises, others as well. My service to others did not end when I received my DD214. If someone is lost, I help them with directions. If there is an accident, I stop and render aid until the Police or Fire Department arrive and release me. If someone is broken down on the side of the road, I stop and ask if they need help, even if I see them on a cell phone. If I see someone being attacked in some way, and there is a way for me to help, I will. It's not being a hero, it's called being a human.
I understand that unless you have been tested that you don't know what you would do in a situation. But to say in advance that you wouldn't do anything to help someone else is simply cowardice. I don't care what kind of background you have, if you are telling me that you would watch my children be harmed or killed and not do anything to assist them, then God help you. I have been tested several times and I know what the possibilities are, and the one thing that I could never live with is to sit by and not do anything while someone or others are becoming victims. I would rather die helping someone else than live as a coward.
Now let me say that I am disgusted that some of you on here who have the means and/or capability to protect others but still have the willfull intention of letting others (possibly my children) suffer while you watch. Those of you who wouldn't lift a finger to help others in need are not sheep, sheep-dogs or even wolves, you are snakes. I pray for your families that they never need assistance while you are not there, that they don't have other snakes like you around them who would just watch them parish.
I don't want to be in a gunfight anymore than anyone else...I've seen what guns do to human flesh and it's quite horrifying. I don't carry a gun with anxious anticipation for the chance to shoot someone. I am, however, mentally ready and prepared to defend my family, myself, and if the need arises, others as well. My service to others did not end when I received my DD214. If someone is lost, I help them with directions. If there is an accident, I stop and render aid until the Police or Fire Department arrive and release me. If someone is broken down on the side of the road, I stop and ask if they need help, even if I see them on a cell phone. If I see someone being attacked in some way, and there is a way for me to help, I will. It's not being a hero, it's called being a human.
I understand that unless you have been tested that you don't know what you would do in a situation. But to say in advance that you wouldn't do anything to help someone else is simply cowardice. I don't care what kind of background you have, if you are telling me that you would watch my children be harmed or killed and not do anything to assist them, then God help you. I have been tested several times and I know what the possibilities are, and the one thing that I could never live with is to sit by and not do anything while someone or others are becoming victims. I would rather die helping someone else than live as a coward.
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
Most of you don't get it. The whole sheepdog analogy was NOT written about or for CHP/CHL/CCW holders.
The sheepdog reference is to a story recounted by David Grossman in "On Killing" that was supposedly said by somebody else. It is an analogous story about whether the listener is a sheep, sheepdog, or wolf. Many citizens think it should be a story about them in a hero role as a sheepdog, but the story is a military/police based story where cops and the military are professionally slated in their protective roles, like "sheepdogs." That is apparently the original intent.
The problems with the story are numerous and it is obviously put together by somebody who hasn't a clue about shepherding, sheep, sheepdogs, and wolves. It is really nothing more than a Warner Brothers/Looney Tunes adaptation of what goes on between Ralph (the wolf who looks like Wyle E. Coyote) and Sam, the sheepdog.
It oversimplifies the notion that anyone who isn't engage in active defense is either a criminal or part of a mindless flock following and thus a defenseless sheep. It completely negates the fact that the sheep are basically being held in concentration camps where they are imprisoned as livestock to be fleeced or butchered at the will of the rancher (a component not mentioned in the story as the evil overlord or commanding officer of the sheepdogs) and the sheepdogs do protect the sheep, but only at the command of their overload and only because the sheep are a valuable commodity to the overlord, not because the sheepdogs particularly care about sheep or have a sense or duty to the sheep. Their duty is to their master who doesn't love the sheep either. It is the primary role of the sheepdog not to protect the sheep, but to influence control over them for the overlord. They are the guards. This isn't all that different to slave owners in the south that protected their slaves so long as it suited them, using their sheepdog guards to do so.
The whole sheepdog analogy is just downright oversimplified to the point of ignorance. Grossman and some gun folks look at the role of the sheepdog as if it was some higher standard, but if applied to our society, those that hold others against their will and not for any crimes against society are not good people, but that what a sheepdog does. The sheepdog only protects the sheep from the wolves, not from the rancher. Go figure.
A sheepdog is nothing but a henchman, but a very useful one TO THE RANCHER, not to the sheep. Just because it was applied to a military context does not make it accurate, applicable, or even remotely realistic.
The sheepdog reference is to a story recounted by David Grossman in "On Killing" that was supposedly said by somebody else. It is an analogous story about whether the listener is a sheep, sheepdog, or wolf. Many citizens think it should be a story about them in a hero role as a sheepdog, but the story is a military/police based story where cops and the military are professionally slated in their protective roles, like "sheepdogs." That is apparently the original intent.
The problems with the story are numerous and it is obviously put together by somebody who hasn't a clue about shepherding, sheep, sheepdogs, and wolves. It is really nothing more than a Warner Brothers/Looney Tunes adaptation of what goes on between Ralph (the wolf who looks like Wyle E. Coyote) and Sam, the sheepdog.
It oversimplifies the notion that anyone who isn't engage in active defense is either a criminal or part of a mindless flock following and thus a defenseless sheep. It completely negates the fact that the sheep are basically being held in concentration camps where they are imprisoned as livestock to be fleeced or butchered at the will of the rancher (a component not mentioned in the story as the evil overlord or commanding officer of the sheepdogs) and the sheepdogs do protect the sheep, but only at the command of their overload and only because the sheep are a valuable commodity to the overlord, not because the sheepdogs particularly care about sheep or have a sense or duty to the sheep. Their duty is to their master who doesn't love the sheep either. It is the primary role of the sheepdog not to protect the sheep, but to influence control over them for the overlord. They are the guards. This isn't all that different to slave owners in the south that protected their slaves so long as it suited them, using their sheepdog guards to do so.
The whole sheepdog analogy is just downright oversimplified to the point of ignorance. Grossman and some gun folks look at the role of the sheepdog as if it was some higher standard, but if applied to our society, those that hold others against their will and not for any crimes against society are not good people, but that what a sheepdog does. The sheepdog only protects the sheep from the wolves, not from the rancher. Go figure.
A sheepdog is nothing but a henchman, but a very useful one TO THE RANCHER, not to the sheep. Just because it was applied to a military context does not make it accurate, applicable, or even remotely realistic.
DarkSoldier
Member
- Joined
- Jan 16, 2008
- Messages
- 145
I think if we all go back and read what Graymutt said in Post #47, we can put this thing to bed and move on. Over the last few years there have been a lot of comments made about the Sheepdog analogy. Graymutt's is one of the best I've read. I think even Col. Grossman would agree.
Respectfully,
DarkSoldier
Respectfully,
DarkSoldier
Gunship69
Member
I agree with DarkSoldier. It is an ANALOGY! Sheepdogs, either military or law enforcement, don't "herd" or "hold" any sheep civilians for any "overlord" of "sheperd". Law enforcement sheepdogs simply enforce the law of the land, laws made by the general populace. Simply put, if the crap hits the fan in this country, be it another terrorist attack or a natural disaster, there are not enough cops out there to do everything that needs to be done. Hopefully there will be people willing to help out in whatever way they can. Getting involved as a sheepdog is not about taking someones life, it's about helping someone.
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
Then it is an extremely poor analogy and one that doesn't work, and as I noted, created by somebody who hasn't a clue as to the job of an actual sheepdog. The only context in which it works is as an analogy based on Looney Toons, but I guess being called a "Looney Toons Sheepdog" just isn't very appealing to most people.
Treo
member
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=386866&highlight=sheepdog
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=366428&highlight=sheepdog
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=283039&highlight=sheepdog
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=246057&highlight=sheepdog
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=219003&highlight=sheepdog
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=216018&highlight=sheepdog
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=202408&highlight=sheepdog
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=154842&highlight=sheepdog
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=124614&highlight=sheepdog
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=18133&highlight=sheepdog
Guys it’s been done, and done, and done, and done, and done, and done, and done, and done, and done, and done, and done, and done.
Let it go
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=366428&highlight=sheepdog
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=283039&highlight=sheepdog
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=246057&highlight=sheepdog
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=219003&highlight=sheepdog
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=216018&highlight=sheepdog
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=202408&highlight=sheepdog
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=154842&highlight=sheepdog
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=124614&highlight=sheepdog
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=18133&highlight=sheepdog
Guys it’s been done, and done, and done, and done, and done, and done, and done, and done, and done, and done, and done, and done.
Let it go
CoRoMo
Member
I'm glad that the training I've received has taught me to avoid "walking". I'm also tired of this stuff.
jad0110
Member
Though I feel the same way, I do acknowledge the fact that there are times when it may be impossible to determine who the aggressor is with certainty. It really depends on the specific situation at hand. If the circumstances are blatantly obvious (such as I witnessed the entire episode unfold before me or 85 year old granny in a wheelchair is being mugged by a pair of teenage thugs), then there is a greater likelihood that I may step in, but only if I believe there is a very good chance that I could do some good. But if I have doubts, especially about who the badguy really is, well, I don't want to make things worse. In such a case, if I get involved at all it probably wouldn't be with my weapon drawn.
ColinthePilot
Member
I am amazed at the levels this thread sank to before the Moderator Dog stepped in, ended the stampede (do sheep stampede?) and brought order back. I just would've closed it if it was the board I moderate. That is all.
Treo
member
Yes.
Maybe I have a bad attitude or something, but I really think people should spend less time worrying about taking care of others and focus on taking care of themselves.
I don't care about the herd. I'm out for me and mine.
/wolf pack
//It never troubles the wolf how many the sheep may be.
I don't care about the herd. I'm out for me and mine.
/wolf pack
//It never troubles the wolf how many the sheep may be.
DarkSoldier
Member
- Joined
- Jan 16, 2008
- Messages
- 145
Double Naught Spy,
When compared to the names I've been called over the years, " Looney Tunes Sheepdog" really doesn't cause me much distress.
Throughout the years I, and my kind, have often been disrespected by those we protect. We don't understand it, but we don't take it personally, and we don't take it seriously. We simply accept it and keep it in perspective as we go about the business of doing what we swore our Oath to do. Regardless of how we are treated by society, we will always be here for you and yours.
I do, however, regret the anger this seems to generate in some people.
Gunship69, thanks for the kind thoughts.
Respects to you both,
DarkSoldier
When compared to the names I've been called over the years, " Looney Tunes Sheepdog" really doesn't cause me much distress.
Throughout the years I, and my kind, have often been disrespected by those we protect. We don't understand it, but we don't take it personally, and we don't take it seriously. We simply accept it and keep it in perspective as we go about the business of doing what we swore our Oath to do. Regardless of how we are treated by society, we will always be here for you and yours.
I do, however, regret the anger this seems to generate in some people.
Gunship69, thanks for the kind thoughts.
Respects to you both,
DarkSoldier
It's a metaphor. An analogy. It's not supposed to be a perfect description. If you don't like the analogy, then don't use it. Or modify it slightly.
Come on guys get real.
Suppose some PETA freak came on here and started bleating about how unfair this analogy was to wolves. "Wolves are nice. Wolves are social animals. Blah, blah, blah." It would be a little silly.
If you don't think people should interfere in third party situations and that you wouldn't do it then just say so. You think dogs are excessively loyal and you're not, fine. Who cares? Dogs tend to have litters of puppies at a time. I'm happy that my wife only has them one at a time. But that is completely missing the point.
It's a metaphor. Get over it.
If someone new has never heard this analogy before, perhaps it will have meaning for them. Perhaps not. Let them decide. Stop tilting at windmills.
(Note to the metaphor impaired: Windmills are a metaphor.)
Come on guys get real.
Suppose some PETA freak came on here and started bleating about how unfair this analogy was to wolves. "Wolves are nice. Wolves are social animals. Blah, blah, blah." It would be a little silly.
If you don't think people should interfere in third party situations and that you wouldn't do it then just say so. You think dogs are excessively loyal and you're not, fine. Who cares? Dogs tend to have litters of puppies at a time. I'm happy that my wife only has them one at a time. But that is completely missing the point.
It's a metaphor. Get over it.
If someone new has never heard this analogy before, perhaps it will have meaning for them. Perhaps not. Let them decide. Stop tilting at windmills.
(Note to the metaphor impaired: Windmills are a metaphor.)
ReadyontheRight
Member
I don't want to make any more trouble here, but I guess I will. How does the shepherd, and all the religious analogies to the shepherd, fit in with this description of the sheepdog? Don't they perform basically the same job?
Maybe every analogy does not have to be all-encompassing hyperbole. Maybe it's just a good description to get a point across. Sheep/Sheepdog/Wolf works if you leave it in a field at night.
I think "sheeple" is just too easy of a term. "Lemmingeople" doesn't roll of the tongue very well, but it's a little more descriptive today.
If someone wants to be a hero and get involved where they weren't initially, that's their call. I won't because all too often in our society that means that I will be taken from my family, leaving them to the "wolves" without their "sheepdog" to protect them. Just as a sheepdog doesn't protect another ranchers sheep, I have my loyalty ONLY to my own family. Of course I'll call 911. That's a given. Of course I will render whatever comfort, support, assistance, aid, whatever I can after the situation, but I will not try to figure out a violent confrontation that does not involve me just so I can feel good about myself. My wife and children deserve better than that. If that makes me a snake, so be it. My wife and kids deserve to have their snake at home, rather than in jail or dead, or spending hundreds of thousands defending myself in court.
DarkSoldier
Member
- Joined
- Jan 16, 2008
- Messages
- 145
TX1911fan,
That doesn't make you a snake. It makes you someone who has thought this situation over carefully, and made decisions that are proper and appropriate for you and your family. I can certainly respect that.
Sincerely,
DarkSoldier
That doesn't make you a snake. It makes you someone who has thought this situation over carefully, and made decisions that are proper and appropriate for you and your family. I can certainly respect that.
Sincerely,
DarkSoldier
Thin Black Line
Member
Double N S,
Yes, agreed, fine, this is an oversimplification. But, YES, it was Grossman
quoting one of the many soldiers/veterans he talked to over the years. The
book's main focus was on that group. That group is going to have "different"
ways of seeing and describing the world. Those of us who've been in that
world know this. There are great differences within that world as well (try
getting an airman and a marine together on the same page sometime).
TRGRHPY,
Welcome back to housedog status with me and the other vets...veterans,
not veterinarians...lol...however, with all the animal noises here maybe we
all need one!
Jeeze, ppl, lighten up....what's next? A thunderdome at THR for the
everlasting Battle of Hyperbole?
Treo
member
Two men enter
One man leaves Thin Black Line
Member
Treo,
It's a mod with his finger on the nuke button who leaves....
It's a mod with his finger on the nuke button who leaves....
Just as I have no desire to be a "sheepdog", I also have no desire to nitpick words. It was a good read, and I think readers can take something from the article without over analyzing the word "sheepdog", even if they haven't spent time in combat, or volunteered for the local VFD. I know boys will be boys, but this still gets old, I can't help but to agree with the following quote.
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Treo
member
I am now envisioning the mods running around dressed like Tina Turner
Joe Demko
Member
Criminals are a superstitious and cowardly lot, so my disguise must be able to strike terror into their hearts. I must be a creature of the night, black, terrible...
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