Green Tip and the Overton Window

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ConstitutionCowboy

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We've been progressing into a socialist state for the better part of a century. The Overton Window has been and is being employed with great success by the socialists. It looks like the BATFE has adopted that same Overton Window strategy.

I believe this push for the green tip ammo ban is just one more example. The push was on to ban it and now there has been a tactical retreat. Trouble is, it isn't over. It is just tabled for now. Their gain is the fact that now it is on the table where it wasn't before. That's how the Overton Window works. You leap several steps forward, then fall back but never all the way back. Then you leap several more steps forward and fall back some again, but now you've gained a little more.

The only way to put a stop to this debacle is to eliminate the ATF and all the usurped powers it uses. Don't redistribute those usurped powers to other agencies; those usurped powers need to be eliminated completely.

Woody

"We the People reserve the right and the power to preserve or restore freedom and the Constitution. Those vested with the powers to serve shall neither deprive the People the means nor compel such recourse." B.E. Wood
 
Yup, they got the ball rolling.

Set up the straw man,
initiate action,
prompt an "overreaction" response from the opposition.
tactically "retreat",
wait for the straw man scenario to play out,
vilify the previous opposition,
declare that the tragedy could have been avoided if only...,
attempt to sweep ALL 5.56 into the mix.

In this case the straw man will be if/when an LEO - or in fact anyone - is shot with 5.56 (AP or otherwise, facts won't matter) out of anything that may be twisted to be perceived as a pistol.

Todd.
 
ConstitutionCowboy ....The only way to put a stop to this debacle is to eliminate the ATF and all the usurped powers it uses. Don't redistribute those usurped powers to other agencies; those usurped powers need to be eliminated completely.
Click to expand...
No, the only way to neuter ATF is by repealing the 1934 National Firearms Act and the 1968 Gun Control Act.

Until those Federal laws are repealed or ruled unconstitutional you can gnash your teeth all day long about "usurped powers".

Don't hold your breath.;)
 
dogtown tom said:
No, the only way to neuter ATF is by repealing the 1934 National Firearms Act and the 1968 Gun Control Act.

Until those Federal laws are repealed or ruled unconstitutional you can gnash your teeth all day long about "usurped powers".

Don't hold your breath.;)
Click to expand...
Both those acts ARE usurped powers.

Woody
 
OP says
The only way to put a stop to this debacle is to eliminate the ATF and all the usurped powers it uses.
Click to expand...
So, do you have a proposal to do this, or are you just complaining?
Don't redistribute those usurped powers to other agencies;
Click to expand...
Well, good luck with that ... the only thing federal agencies are good for is growing more federal agencies. In our country's history, I can't recall a situation where the government has disbanded an agency and not redistributed its functions and powers. Ever.

As far as the country moving toward pure socialism, this appears to be what the majority of the people desire ... Small pockets of resistance aside, it's getting worse. And the people are voting less; they're simply tolerating, and letting others make the decisions. Blah, blah and blah. It's not about green tip ammo.
 
I would say abolishing the regulatory agencies as they stand today would be a net gain, but it wouldn't address the problems that they were created to address. They might be clearly hostile to our rights as they stand, but that's no protection from other forces being hostile to our rights under the color of law in the future.

Without the regulatory agencies to implement the law, we would see LEOAs nationwide taking their own stance on the laws, and probably eventually becoming just as hostile to our rights as the regulatory agencies are now.

The real issue is that regulatory agencies and enforcement agencies are meant to be a check and balance against one another. A regulatory agency has the authority (with disclosure to Congress and to the public at large) to implement regulations to ensure fair implementation of law in situations that Congress may not have forseen. But even with such a regulation put into practice, the regulatory agencies must look to LEOs to enforce their regulations, and the LEOs have the power to say 'We disagree, we will not enforce this'.

So now we have the ATF, which is BOTH regulatory, AND enforcement. I suggest that THIS is the actual root cause of our current issues.
 
Set up the straw man,
initiate action,
prompt an "overreaction" response from the opposition.
tactically "retreat",
wait for the straw man scenario to play out,
vilify the previous opposition,
declare that the tragedy could have been avoided if only...,
attempt to sweep ALL 5.56 into the mix.

In this case the straw man will be if/when an LEO - or in fact anyone - is shot with 5.56 (AP or otherwise, facts won't matter) out of anything that may be twisted to be perceived as a pistol.

Todd.
Click to expand...

Completely impossible within current regulations, it would take an act of congress at the very least to include all 5.56 and even then I think we'd be able to make a very strong case for infringement in the courts. Green tip, was in danger because an argument can be made that it is an AP round (whether thats true is a different debate for another thread). The ATF would not be able to make the same case for plain jane 5.56.
 
"I believe this push for the green tip ammo ban is just one more example. The push was on to ban it and now there has been a tactical retreat. Trouble is, it isn't over."

Well, no...it isn't over, as evidenced by the latest "testimony" of Barack Hussein Obama's hand-picked stooge to lead the BATboys.

However, here is why the game has changed in ways that the current administration cannot control:

Blatant lies and advocacy for contravention of established law are exposed *seconds* after they are puked from government servers. We have instant access to info that proves that their sophistry is nothing more than agitprop.

And that access is why the totalitarians @fed.gov are determined to make "net neutrality" a tool to censor anything which opposes their goals.

Totalitarians are attacking us via multiple subjects and on multiple levels. I encourage all of you to look at the big picture. Do what you can when you can and thank you for what you do.
 
ConstitutionCowboy said:
Their gain is the fact that now it is on the table where it wasn't before. That's how the Overton Window works. You leap several steps forward, then fall back but never all the way back. Then you leap several more steps forward and fall back some again, but now you've gained a little more.
Click to expand...


Wrong.....it was on the table before, way back in 1986. It was banned then and then given an exemption back when the political climate for guns was not as favorable as it is now. While it got an exemption for use in rifles, it never was exempted for use in semi-auto handguns because there were none. Many of us knew way back then this would at some point come back and bite us in the backside, but the majority of folks were not concerned because it did not affect them. Wasn't til now when it may have affected them did they get concerned, and then all of a sudden it was a NEW thing proposed by the current administration. Fact is, it isn't new and wasn't brought about by the current administration. It's 30 years old and was implemented by the Reagan administration. The current administration was only attempting to enforce the original ideals and the reasoning behind the LEOPA. Those steps back you speak of have been being taken for the last 30 years. The window of what the public would accept apparently was wider 30 years ago than it is now.
 
I believe the EPA SWAT/Sniper school teaches how to shot through the Overton window.
 
buck460XVR said:
Wrong.....it was on the table before, way back in 1986. It was banned then and then given an exemption back when the political climate for guns was not as favorable as it is now. While it got an exemption for use in rifles, it never was exempted for use in semi-auto handguns because there were none. Many of us knew way back then this would at some point come back and bite us in the backside, but the majority of folks were not concerned because it did not affect them. Wasn't til now when it may have affected them did they get concerned, and then all of a sudden it was a NEW thing proposed by the current administration. Fact is, it isn't new and wasn't brought about by the current administration. It's 30 years old and was implemented by the Reagan administration. The current administration was only attempting to enforce the original ideals and the reasoning behind the LEOPA. Those steps back you speak of have been being taken for the last 30 years. The window of what the public would accept apparently was wider 30 years ago than it is now.
Click to expand...

I have a hard time wrapping my mind around any infringement of the Second Amendment as being an ideal. Regardless, the M855 doesn't even fit the definition of AP ammo. Making an effort to alter the definition of what constitutes AP ammo per the law in order to ban M855 Green Tip is the leap through the Overton Window. That wasn't the case 30 years ago.

Woody
 
ConstitutionCowboy said:
Making an effort to alter the definition of what constitutes AP ammo per the law in order to ban M855 Green Tip is the leap through the Overton Window. That wasn't the case 30 years ago.

Woody
Click to expand...


They didn't make any effort to alter the definition. It is the same definition as it was 30 years ago. M855 was banned 30 years ago as per the definition and only exempted as sporting rifle ammo. There was no leap, not even a crawl thru. Folks should have been screaming 30 years ago when it was first defined as AP and was endangered as being banned as soon as a semi-auto handguns chambered for it were available.
 
I promise the libs believe the overton is going the other way.

1) massive amounts of guns are being bought
2) polls showing a slight majority think gun laws are ok
3) many states removing carry restrictions
4) lawmakers who make anti gun laws get voted out. Even after a sandy hook.

They hate the NRA because the NRA is slowly winning.
 
buck460XVR said:
They didn't make any effort to alter the definition. It is the same definition as it was 30 years ago. M855 was banned 30 years ago as per the definition and only exempted as sporting rifle ammo. There was no leap, not even a crawl thru. Folks should have been screaming 30 years ago when it was first defined as AP and was endangered as being banned as soon as a semi-auto handguns chambered for it were available.
Click to expand...
USC 921 Definitions

(17) ...
(B) The term “armor piercing ammunition” means—
(i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; ...​

M855 does not have a solid core of steel, or any other or any combination of the other metals listed, and the balance of the core is lead which is not on the list. To call M855 armor piercing, the definition of what is defined as armor piercing must be misconstrued or otherwise "redefined". That is what is new; that is the 'discussion' the ATF has brought to and left on the table in their tactical retreat.

Woody
 
While we're doing definitions, care to explain what the heck the "Overton Window" is? :rolleyes: We're not all poly-sci flunkies

The Window is not a 'strategy,' or scheme. You make it sound like some Alinski nonsense; a dirty-play tactic to forcibly change the public debate. That's not what it is. It is a rational way to categorize public policy positions with an eye for political feasibility. It's how you rank what is obtainable vs. what you ultimately want. Push for policy that is too far from the norm, and it will backfire for many reasons; gradually shift the status quo like a Ouija lens with both sides' hand on the thing, and you'll eventually get somewhere.

Banning all M855 was seen as possibly doable, so the ATF went for it (it also served nicely as a news-cycle distraction for Hill's private server farm, but it's taken on a life of its own since then). When Mr. Jones then suggested banning all FMJ rifle ammo, our reaction (and congressmens') swiftly showed that to be in the "unthinkable" realm of public policy; far beyond even the "reckless" M855 ban that was going to be implemented unilaterally.

The fact the proposals were mentioned has not itself changed what most folks think is reasonable. No one's 'bargaining' from any of these positions. The anti's are just throwing spaghetti at the wall to see if we have any weak spots. This ammo tactic is a somewhat new one, which is why they are so clumsy at it (they may not know jack about guns, but they got pretty good at finding scary looking rifles that the non-committed voter would cower in fear of. All bullets look the same and they can't try to ban all bullets, so this new hatchet job is a lot more technical and difficult. Especially since it inevitably involves admitting 5.56 isn't the cat's pajamas capable of annihilating universes that they've said it is, in the grand scheme of cartridges)

TCB
 
OBSOLETE: Overton Window

Constitution Cowboy (& All),

barnbwt's post got me to thinking and questioning (always dangerous). What exactly is the Overton Window, and who is Overton anyway? Here is the answer, from the source:

An Introduction to the Overton Window of Political Possibilities
By Nathan J. Russell, published on Jan. 4, 2006
The Mackinac Center for Public Policy
http://www.mackinac.org/article.aspx?ID=7504

Joseph P. Overton exerted enormous influence from 1992 to 2003 as a researcher, author and the Mackinac Center for Public Policy’s senior vice president.

I believe the Mackinac Center is non-partisan, probably even sane and reasonable, as think tanks go. So, therefore, they and Overton probably operate in good faith. This is in contrast to present-day politicians and the like-minded people they have squirreled away in the bureaucracy and courts.

This is why I suggest that the Overton Window is obsolete:
The very basis of Overton's Window is "politicians ... Therefore, will almost always constrain themselves to taking actions within the 'window' of ideas approved of by the electorate". This is manifestly not true of the present federal administration, including many of its cabinet-level agencies. 80% of citizens oppose the President's executive amnesty. EPA is forcing shutdown of 120+ coal-fired electricity generation plants this year (no one voted for that). 70+% of the population wants the Keystone XL pipeline. The executive agreement with Iran is roundly disapproved. I could go on, and on, and on.... The point is, this administration routinely flouts the will of the people and gets away with it. There are many reasons. The first black President cannot be criticized. The legacy media is in the tank for left-wing policies. I could go on, and on, and on....

The point is, the governmentalist "party" (whether it is only the Democrats or whether its them plus willing Republicans) is acting boldly, stridently in opposition to the prevailing will of the electorate (it's as if the election of Nov. 2014 didn't even happen). This is something that Joseph P. Overton could not have even conceived as possible in 2002 when he came up with his Overton Window theory. Therefore, Overton Window is obsolete inasmuch as it no longer explains the observable data we see in reality.

Another point is, politicians and their electability don't matter so much anymore. As I hinted above, the governmentalist movement has like-minded people squirreled away in the bureaucracy and courts. Therefore, the governmentalist agenda (dominance of government over all other societal powers) proceeds forward even when its proponents have been thrown out of elected office. Mere elections cannot cure the problem. This also was not factored into the Overton Window theory, which is another reason it is obsolete.
 
buck460XVR said:
They didn't make any effort to alter the definition. It is the same definition as it was 30 years ago. M855 was banned 30 years ago as per the definition and only exempted as sporting rifle ammo. There was no leap, not even a crawl thru. Folks should have been screaming 30 years ago when it was first defined as AP and was endangered as being banned as soon as a semi-auto handguns chambered for it were available.
Click to expand...

Here is an argument that I haven't seen. The M855 round fired from short barrel has significantly less velocity than the same M855 round fired from a longer barrel. Basing any such ammo-ban on the "potential" round performance fired from a full length barrel and then saying that's what the AR-15 pistol delivers too.... well that's just a lie.

Relating to the thread, those who push gun control often don't know much at all about guns (note that I didn't say always) other then what they've heard. Propaganda and ignorance rule in gun control circles. So, painting the M855 as an high velocity, armor piecing and "cop killer" round in any firearm that uses it just gives the gun control advocates another point to "negotiate".

chuck
 
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txblackout said:
I promise the libs believe the overton is going the other way.

1) massive amounts of guns are being bought
2) polls showing a slight majority think gun laws are ok
3) many states removing carry restrictions
4) lawmakers who make anti gun laws get voted out. Even after a sandy hook.

They hate the NRA because the NRA is slowly winning.
Click to expand...
thats not the NRA voting people out, pushing state legislators to remove carry limits, or federal representatives to oppose legislation, thats us, thats gun owners doing this.. thats the difference between 2015 and 1986, today the people are taking the defense of their rights into their own hands and letting their voices be heard
 
someone should come up with a letter we can post that we can easily sign our name to and send to our representatives.. we need to stop talking about pushing back more and actually do it.. we need to target the 68 and 86 gun control laws and we need to do that NOW.. and then take out of the 34 GCA after the other two are gone.. these gun control measures ONLY exist on the premise that guns are for sporting, they regulate things based on whether they have sporting purposes or not, since the second amendment has nothing to do with sporting, these laws violate the second amendment and can/should be defeated as unconstitutional in the courts
 
This could be a little more calculated than the Overton Window theory. The ATF appears to have backed down from the backlash, but maybe the backlash is what they wanted in the first place. How many times since this potential M855 ban has been introduced have you heard that M855 is no more dangerous than any other .223 or 5.56 ammo? or any other rifle ammo for that matter? What if the ATF is sitting back taking notes on all of the ammo we are claiming to be just as dangerous? The left wingers at the state level here would just be expanding the proposed ban to include it all! Pretty soon the only rifle ammo left will be .22LR. I know SHTF isn't something we discuss here, but 5 years ago, if you asked any prepper what one caliber they would want to have the answer would likely have been .22 because it was cheap, plentiful, and you can get it anywhere. Things change.
 
Call it what you want but things are shifting. Yes we have seen some inroads in gun rights but we have also seen what I believe will ultimately turn us the other way.
Amnesty, definition of marriage, drug legalization and many other social reforms are changing the electorate and eventually it will overwhelm the traditional views of what we believe the Constitution and American way stand for.
 
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