Gun control in India.

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TRIGGER51B

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Colonial Roots of Gun-Control

I live in India and I am a proud firearm owner - but I am the exception not the norm, an odd situation in a country with a proud martial heritage and a long history of firearm innovation. This is not because the people of India are averse to gun ownership, but instead due to Draconian anti-gun legislation going back to colonial times.

To trace the roots of India's anti-gun legislation we need to step back to the latter half of the 19th century. The British had recently fought off a major Indian rebellion (the mutiny of 1857) and were busy putting in place measures to ensure that the events of 1857 were never repeated. These measures included a major restructuring of administration and the colonial British Indian Army along with improvements in communications and transportation. Meanwhile the Indian masses were systematically being disarmed and the means of local firearm production destroyed, to ensure that they (the Indian masses) would never again have the means to rise in rebellion against their colonial masters. Towards this end the colonial government, under Lord Lytton as Viceroy (1874 -1880), brought into existence the Indian Arms Act, 1878 (11 of 1878); an act which, exempted Europeans and ensured that no Indian could possess a weapon of any description unless the British masters considered him a "loyal" subject of the British Empire.

An example of British thinking in colonial times:

"No kingdom can be secured otherwise than by arming the people. The possession of arms is the distinction between a freeman and a slave. He, who has nothing, and who himself belongs to another, must be defended by him, whose property he is, and needs no arms. But he, who thinks he is his own master, and has what he can call his own, ought to have arms to defend himself, and what he possesses; else he lives precariously, and at discretion." --James Burgh (Political Disquisitions: Or, an Enquiry into Public Errors, Defects, and Abuses) [London, 1774-1775]

And thoughts (on this subject) of the man who wanted to rule the world:

"The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to allow the subject races to possess arms. History shows that all conquerors who have allowed the subject races to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by so doing. Indeed, I would go so far as to say that the supply of arms to the underdogs is a sine qua non for the overthrow of any sovereignty." -- Adolf Hitler (H.R. Trevor-Roper, Hitler's Table Talks 1941-1944)

The leaders of our freedom struggle recognised this, even Gandhi the foremost practitioner of passive resistance and non-violence had this to say about the British policy of gun-control in India:

"Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the Act depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest." -- Mahatma Gandhi (An Autobiography OR The story of my experiments with truth, by M.K. Gandhi, p.238)

Post Independence
India became independent in 1947, but it still took 12 years before this act was finally repealed. In 1959 the British era Indian Arms Act, 1878 (11 of 1878.) was finally consigned to history and a new act, the Arms Act, 1959 was enacted. This was later supplemented by the Arms Rules, 1962. Unfortunately this new legislation was also formulated based on the Indian Government's innate distrust its own citizens. Though somewhat better than the British act, this legislation gave vast arbitrary powers to the "Licensing Authorities", in effect ensuring that it is often difficult and sometimes impossible for an ordinary law abiding Indian citizen to procure an arms license.

"A system of licensing and registration is the perfect device to deny gun ownership to the bourgeoisie." -- Vladimir Ilyich Lenin

Also the policy of throttling private arms manufacturing was continued even after independence. Limits on the quantity and type of arms that could be produced by private manufacturers were placed - ensuring that the industry could never hope to be globally competitive and was instead consigned to producing cheap shotguns, of mostly indifferent quality, in small quantities. A citizen wishing to purchase a decent firearm depended solely on imports, which were a bit more expensive but vastly superior in quality.

More Recently
This changed towards the mid to late 1980s, when the Government, citing domestic insurgency as the reason, put a complete stop to all small arms imports. The fact that there is no documented evidence of any terrorists ever having used licensed weapons to commit an act of terror on Indian soil seems to be of no consequence to our Government. The prices of (legal & licensed) imported weapons have been on an upward spiral ever since - beating the share market and gold in terms of pure return on investment. Even the shoddy domestically produced guns suddenly seem to have found a market. Also since the Government now had a near monopoly on (even half-way decent) arms & ammunition for the civilian market, they started turning the screws by pricing their crude public sector products (ammunition, rifles, shotguns & small quantities of handguns) at ridiculously high rates - products that frankly, given a choice no one would ever purchase.

"That rifle on the wall of the labourer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there." -- George Orwell, the author of Animal Farm and 1984, himself a socialist

Why Citizens Need to be Armed
Curtailing gun ownership, to curb violent crime, through denying licenses or making legal arms & ammunition ridiculously expensive is based on flawed reasoning. The fact is that licensed firearms are found to be used in a statistically insignificant number of violent crimes, motorcycles & cars are far more dangerous. The certainty that a potential victim is unarmed is an encouragement to armed criminals. Less guns, more crime. Most violent crimes involving firearms are committed using untraceable illegal guns. Terrorists or the mafia are not going to be deterred by gun-control laws, they will be willing and able to procure arms of their choice and use them to commit crimes irrespective of any laws. Ironically in India it is cheaper (by several times) to buy the same gun in the black market than it is to buy it legally!

"Gun control? It's the best thing you can do for crooks and gangsters. I want you to have nothing. If I'm a bad guy, I'm always gonna have a gun. Safety locks? You'll pull the trigger with a lock on, and I'll pull the trigger. We'll see who wins." -- Sammy "The Bull" Gravano, Mafia hit man

"The supposed quietude of a good man allures the ruffian; while on the other hand, arms, like laws, discourage and keep the invader and the plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. The same balance would be preserved were all the world destitute of arms, for all would be alike; but since some will not, others dare not lay them aside...Horrid mischief would ensue were one half the world deprived of the use of them..." -- Thomas Paine, Thoughts on Defensive War in 1775

And from the world's gentlest human being:

"If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun." -- The Dalai Lama, (May 15, 2001, The Seattle Times) speaking at the "Educating Heart Summit" in Portland, Oregon, when asked by a girl how to react when a shooter takes aim at a classmate

It is, of course, no coincidence that the right to have guns is one of the earlier freedoms outlined in U.S.A.'s Bill of Rights. Without guns in the hands of the people, all the other freedoms are easily negated by the State. If you disagree with that statement, ask yourself if the Nazis could have gassed millions of Jews, had the Jews been armed with rifles and pistols--there weren't enough SS troops to do the job. Lest we forget, in the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising of 1944, a couple of hundred Jews armed with rifles and homemade explosive devices held off two fully-equipped German divisions (actually about 8,000 men) for nearly two months.

Closer home take the case of the Godhra carnage and the anti-Sikh riots of 1984. Would wanton mobs have slaughtered so many innocent people with such disregard to consequences if their potential victims had been armed and ready to defend themselves? A serious consideration should be given to an armed civilian population as a solution to religious and racial riots as well as other crimes. Since all criminals are instinctively driven by self-preservation allowing legal ownership of firearms by law abiding citizens would act as a serious deterrent. This will make sure that if the Govt. fails to do its duty to protect the life and liberty of its citizens (as it has so often done in India's recent past), citizens will be able to protect themselves. I'll take some potential objections and try to answer them:

Arguments & Counter-Arguments
Q1. Won't legal owners of arms use the firearms to kill and murder others?
Ans. When a man holds a rifle, he becomes almost godlike: suddenly, he has the ability to deal death and injury to another over a considerable distance--to send, as it were, a thunderbolt of Zeus. For some men, unquestionably, this power is going to be abused, just as some men will always drive a fast car at reckless speeds. For the vast majority of men, however, this power produces precisely the opposite effect: they are humbled by the power they hold, and they become more responsible in its use. That is why, in a nation like the United States with well over seventy million gun owners, only a tiny fraction, less than half a tenth of one percent, use a gun to commit a crime each year. Also since the firearms would be registered with the Govt. along with the owners address, the type of the firearm, its serial number etc. Those (the criminals) who want to commit crimes will not and DO NOT bother to purchase firearms legally and register them. They can and do buy them from the black market (at a fraction of the cost of a legal firearm, I might add). Legal ownership will allow law abiding citizens to protect their and others life and property.

Q2. Won't there be a free for all during riots?
Ans. By definition riots ARE free for all. However, very few people will participate in riots knowing that a large number of law abiding citizens own firearms in the area. This will actually prevent riots. Riots are mostly started by miscreants (unscrupulous politicians?) who want to benefit from the chaos of riots. However, the risk (loss of life or limb) for the miscreant in starting and/ or participating in such riots, when a large number of the general civilian population owns legal firearms, is significant. Therefore in most cases miscreants will not dare to start riots in the first place.

Q3.What about domestic violence and firearms?
Ans. Domestic violence has nothing to do with firearm ownership. Firearms are merely a tool -- not the cause of violence, to quote a famous NRA slogan "Guns don't kill people, people kill people". Women in India face domestic violence even today with very limited legal gun ownership. If anything, legal firearms in the hands of women might help even the odds -- by removing the physical weakness of women from the equation.

Q4. What about accidents?
Ans. More people in India get killed in automobile accidents than firearm accidents. In countries where gun ownership rates are high like the United States (which has a firearm to population ratio of approx 96:100, i.e., almost 1 firearm for every man woman & child), Switzerland, New Zealand etc. several times more people die in road accidents than from firearm accidents. Firearm accidents can be further minimised by making a gun-safety course mandatory before a permit is issued - so long as this is not used as another excuse to delay or deny permits.

Q5. What about firearm assisted suicides?
Ans. A suicidal person has many different available ways to end his/ her life. Firearms are just another means for him/ her. Statistically suicide rates have little correlation with firearm ownership patterns. Many countries with strict anti-gun legislation have high suicide rates and vice versa.

Q6. Are there any working systems and what are the results?
Ans. Yes, for example in U.S.A., Switzerland, New Zealand. One must note here that different states in US have different degrees of gun ownership and firearm restrictions. Interestingly the states with more restrictions on gun ownerships have a higher crime rate than those that are less restrictive.

I do not condone violence or a violent solution to problems, but there can be no justification for not letting people be prepared to defend their own and their families' lives and property. When one is surrounded by mobs bent on setting you on fire and the like, in a country where policing is non-existent, owning firearms by people will have a great deterrent effect on mobs. Of course, if I could sue the police for not giving me complete protection, then I might feel differently (but don't count on it). But by law the State cannot be at fault for not protecting its citizens -- so if the cops take 25 minutes (or several hours) to respond to your call, and in those 25 minutes a criminal kicks open your door, shoots you and your wife, rapes your 11-year-old daughter, and beats your baby to death, that's just tough luck. What about incidents like 1984 and Godhra, where the local administration and police wilfully neglected their duty to protect the citizens of this country?

Please also read the entertaining Parable of the Sheep for an explanation so simple that even a child can understand it.

As the Indian Law stands today a citizen of this country cannot even own a stick without inviting a penalty of 7 years in prison. We live in a country where we have still not cast off the yoke of antiquated laws made by our colonial masters to keep us oppressed and at the mercy of the government, notwithstanding the lofty vision of the first page of our constitution.

Harping on the few who unfortunately misuse firearms unfairly ignores those millions of us spread all over the world who own and use them responsibly. Dreaming romantically about a world where everything has been made perfectly safe "for the children" is just that, dreaming. I've tried visualising world peace until I'm about ready to have an out of body experience, but as soon as I open my eyes, they're bombing civilians in the North East or gunning down innocents in Kashmir. Welcome to the real world.

"I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."-- Patrick Henry

By Abhijeet Singh

Gun control what to expect. SLAVERY
 
It's to bad we can't just call Abhijeet Singh and say hey it's your lucky day here's a plane ticket and a green card, bring anyone who agrees with you along for the ride, we want you.

Instead, we get folks who can barely read or write, mumbling about how the border crossed them and that they will be participating the reconquista to get what was stolen from them, it's just frustrating. :mad:
 
Instead, we get folks who can barely read or write, mumbling about how the border crossed them and that they will be participating the reconquista to get what was stolen from them, it's just frustrating.

Just once, just for kicks, can we try saying something nice about foreigners without feeling obligated to insult other foreigners? Why drag all the negativity into it?

On the plus side, the Hispanic community at large seems pretty pro-gun.

-MV
 
Gentlemen,

Thank you for showing your solidarity with fellow gun owners in India :)

The pro-gun movement is still in it's infancy here, but we are hoping to build it into a stronger and more politically active movement, the goal is to eventually have RKBA written into our constitution (not an easy task I can assure you).

As a very first step, we've got our first pro-gun forum up at www.indiansforguns.com - we also have quite a few of members from the US, UK, NZ etc... people of Indian origin and otherwise... I like to believe gun/ shooting enthusiasts and sportsmen in general know no borders :)

lacoochee, I have visited your beautiful country on more than one occasion, and have several very good friends there, however I do not intend to leave the good fight (here) "unfought", I guess you could say I'm a bit of a patriot ;)

In fact I may be visiting again later this year to meet up with some pro-gunners, and maybe even join some friends for a spot of hunting... that is if my work schedule permits... lets see...

Wish you all the best.

Cheers!
Abhijeet
 
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It is indeed hopeful that we can see support for this basic right outside the borders of the United States. I often wonder why it is that this torch isn't carried in other nations so obviously in need of individual firearms ownership.

And all I have to say on immigration is that as a software developer, I'm frequently in meetings where I'm the only Anglo in the room, and everyone has more education than me.
 
Abhijeet, welcome to THR, and good luck with your (our?) cause - nice to hear about the right to bear arms from someone in India ;)
 
Welcome

What about all those man eating leopards in India? Seems to me a good reason to own a gun.
 
abhijeet

Welcome to The High Road!

It didn't take you long to find us after your article was posted . . . or perhaps you've watched THR for some time?

We share your enthusiasm and hunger for freedom.

I'm glad you're here.
 
Most of the Indian Engineers I work with are interested in firearms, the females are especially interested. One of them that was on my last project asked me about the new indoor range and if they offered training.

I find that a lot of foreign engineers are a lot more interested in firearms than those who have always had the right to them.

MD
 
Thank you all for the welcome :)

ArfinGreebly, I have indeed been to THR on and off... but never did get around to registering. Did so today when I found several hits (on my personal website) coming from this thread - vanity is a terrible thing! :D J/k, saw some interest here on the situation in India, and thought I'd chip in with some first hand info :)

LAR-15, India has lost most of it's forest cover post-independence... from about 30% of land mass in 1947, IIRC it well below 10% now and dense forest cover now comprises less than 2% overall. While there are indeed occasional leopard (and other wild animal) attacks in certain areas, these are few and far between. Also, leopards forced into populated areas (due to habitat destruction) usually prefer to prey on street dogs! And honestly, considering how fast we are loosing our wildlife, I'd much rather these were darted and moved to another location as opposed to being shot... wherever possible that is... too few of them left...

The real problem here are the two legged animals - the criminals, terrorists etc... far more cunning and dangerous.

Also, there is a tendency of many otherwise seemingly pro-gun people here to have an elitist attitude - "It's ok for us to have guns, but we can't let the unwashed masses get their hands on guns - or... there will be trouble" :banghead: Like I said, it isn't going to be easy...

Cheers!
Abhijeet
 
MD_Willington said:
I find that a lot of foreign engineers are a lot more interested in firearms than those who have always had the right to them.

Guilty as charged. :)

I've come across more foreign-born gun nuts (as always, I say this with the utmost affection) at work than US-born. Interestingly, the same ratio is not reflected on the firing line. I don't know why.
 
MatthewVanitas and Tecumseh, I was referring to illegal aliens not the American Hispanic community at large many of whom have lived in this country for generations, some in fact before it became this country. So if you took my post to mean that I thought all Hispanics are illiterate and non-English speaking I apologize.

I think it is important that we continue to attract new Americans from all over the world, regardless of where they come from. As to whether or not Abhijeet would be one of the right candidates just because he supports the inalienable right to self defense, his article makes it self evident that he is articulate and well educated.

MatthewVanitas, you piqued my interest regarding the American Hispanic Community and gun control. So using my google fu, I started
looking around for an answer one way or the other. Not much evidence one way or the other, most of the polls I found seemed to indicate that that community is largely pro-gun control (possible because of high urban concentration?). I couldn't seem to find a poll that I would consider unbiased in some way, (e.g. not sponsored by Gun Control Inc., etc.). I will continue looking but if you have some supporting evidence for your claim I would be interested.
 
Welcome Abhijeet! If your travels bring you to Texas let me know. I’ll introduce you to some fine Texas barbecue and the local shooting range!
 
Well maybe no Texas BBQ if he is a Hindu... no pork for Jews nor muslims... Christians pretty much eat anything...I forget, do Sikhs eat beef?

Man they must have a ton of food rules over in India.. LOL

;)
 
Thank you for the invite Elza, it is really quite gracious of you :) If any of you from THR make it down to New Delhi, do drop me a line... be glad to show you around and buy the beers...

MD_Willington, you are quite right on the eating rules ;) In fact in many Indian states, cow slaughter is illegal, so the beef available is usually buffalo... Plenty of communities are pure Vegan as well... However, I'm agnostic - it's far less complicated this way ;) LOL

AndyC, I see from your profile that you're originally from the UK... They seem to have put in place some pretty restrictive legislation there as well, IIRC no handguns for anyone at all! :eek:

Cheers!
Abhijeet
 
"If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun." -- The Dalai Lama, (May 15, 2001, The Seattle Times) speaking at the "Educating Heart Summit" in Portland, Oregon, when asked by a girl how to react when a shooter takes aim at a classmate

Has this one been confirmed? I have seen the other quotes and they are classics. Never seen this one before.
 
Welcome from me as well Abhijeet. It's good to know that there are articulate people all over the world who support one of the most basic of human rights.

willbrink, the whole quote is: ". . . if someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, he said, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun. Not at the head, where a fatal wound might result. But at some other body part, such as a leg."
I found it here:
http://archives.seattletimes.nwsour...m0&date=20010515&query=educating+heart+summit
 
Guys once again thanks for the warm welcome! :) You might be interested to know that we got some positive media attention this (past) weekend - the newspaper article is online here -

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...friendly/articleshow/msid-2005842,curpg-1.cms

Plenty of loopholes in the journos writing, but a still a welcome break from the constant negative press gun owners keep getting in India.

Cheers!
Abhijeet
 
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