Gun control.... where does it end?

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I believe that a distinction between individual arms and "weapons of war" is a valid one and that weapons of war should be limited to the military for the defense of the nation. However, there should be no restrictions on individual arms.

There is no such distinction. The Constitution does not recognize such distinction, the writings of the Founding Fathers do not recognize such distinction, portability of arms does not indicate such distinction, wealth does not indicate such distinction, commonality of ownership does not indicate such distinction.

To the contrary, the Founding Fathers intended the defense of the nation be based on the ability of the people to bring themselves and their arms (of all scales) to the fight. While they formed a government-run military, 'tis clear they did so reluctantly to fill in the power gap created by citizens not having the wealth or inclination to own & organize high-end arms.

Seems you don't understand a key point:
THE NATION IS THE PEOPLE.
The only purpose of government is to serve the people in ways which they will not or can not do for themselves.
The point of a free nation is that the people are free, while the government is strictly limited.
 
I think something would have to be done to make sure that the nuke in the attic goes somewhere safe when gramps dies, but I feel the people who pay the taxes to the government should have the ability to buy whatever it buys.

If a shipping company wants to buy a battle ship to protect its fleet from pirates, let them.

If billy gates wants an army, he has enough money to have one so he can have one.

There is a quote from a Japenese general I think about not wanting to attack the USA mainland because there will be a rifle behind every blade of grass.

To some extent, I think the government needs to be getting that concept with this war on drugs and terrorism and everything else.

The people of the USA really should understand that they are in charge of protecting the USA. The military should be restricted and the government itself needs to do things for the citizens rather than for itself.

Police have so many military weapons now due to the war on drugs. If the police and druggies can have stuff, I think as a law abiding person who feels heavily taxed that I should have the same options.

I think if the laws on inanimate objects were eliminated, and the court cases against them as well, people would get a clue and the government would realize its power is not omnipotent.

The government's power comes from the people. The people should have the power to handle a government that thinks otherwise.
 
ctdonath,

I do understand the point, very well indeed. However, I avoid the absolutism of saying that we each (individually) have the right to possess any weapon imaginable; i.e. "Come one, come all, get your tactical nukes right here!"
 
This seems like a good place to copy and paste one of my favorite articles by one of my favorite writers, the master Vin Suprynowicz. (Source)

For the record, I agree with every word of this article.

But which arms do we have the right to 'keep and bear'?

M.C. writes, from somewhere on the Atlantic seaboard:

"I have noticed that you have frequently and passionately expressed your support for the Constitutional right to keep and bear arms. ... I have tried my usual method of moral analysis to determine the correct position on this issue. However, I find that I am always left with a seeming quandary, and I wanted to solicit your opinion on this difficult question.

"I start with a predisposition in favor of freedom and respect for the literal meaning of the Constitution. This leads inexorably to strong support for the principle of the right to keep and bear arms. However, when I extrapolate from mere handgun ownership up through rifles and automatic weapons and continuing on to mortars, howitzers and field artillery and ending with nuclear weapons, it seems crystal clear to me that a line must drawn somewhere prior to nuclear weapons in this progression. And yet, from a moral perspective, I cannot seem to find the principle that makes it a right to own a pistol yet illegal to possess a cruise missile.

"I assume that you do not advocate the unrestricted right to own weapons of mass destruction. If you do not, perhaps you can explain to me where you draw the line, and why."

I responded:
Thanks for your thoughtful inquiry.

Many gun rights advocates rationalize a line between the weapons which a common foot-soldier can carry into combat, and those which are "crew-served," and thus require the logistical support of a larger group of men to field effectively, such as Howitzers, fighter aircraft, and, yes, nuclear weapons.

Thus, they tell us they believe the Second Amendment grants "the people" the right to own rifles, possibly up to the size of a Browning 30-caliber machine gun, which one person could conceivably carry and use in combat. This argument would also have to "allow" the citizen the use of a small mortar, but not of a wheeled 57-mm gun, etc.

An embarrassed silence usually ensues when you ask about the shoulder-launched, heat-seeking anti-aircraft missile. Clearly, single Afghan "militiamen" used such weapons quite effectively against Russian Hind helicopters, but many folks get queasy about the obvious implication that some kind of "White supremacist Aryan Nation militia nut" might thus be granted the unrestricted right to take aim at any government helicopter that hies into view near his "compound."

The other approach -- common among the savvier Libertarian political candidates, is to sidestep the issue with some kind of dismissive joke, indicating, "I'll be happy when everyone can own a handgun and an M-16; we won't be campaigning on personal ownership of atomic weapons THIS year, ha ha ha."

The problem with both approaches, as usual, if that the attempt to temper, moderate, or compromise the "principle" with whatever seems "pragmatically acceptable," only draws attention to the "fudge factor."

Like you, I don't get it. All such distinctions are arbitrary. In fact, single soldiers -- admittedly not the (start ital)average(end ital) infantryman, but specially-tasked SEALS and the like -- are widely believed to have already carried nuclear devices in their backpacks, on special covert missions overseas. So the whole rationale of what can be "handled by a single man" will shortly collapse.

The main point is this: The federal government has no powers, except those delegated to it by the people. I cannot delegate a power which is not already mine. So how can I delegate to the government the power to build, possess, deploy, yes and even use, nuclear weapons, if I, as an INDIVIDUAL American, do not possess that right, PRIOR to its delegation to government?

(Nor do I fully give up a power, when I delegate it. We each retain the right to make a citizen's arrest of a fleeing felon, even though we generally delegate this job to the police.)

Mr. Madison, and others of the Founders, said the whole idea of maintaining an armed populace is so that any potential tyrant would confront a body of the common folk, able to rise up and field a force BETTER armed and equipped than the federal government. If the 82nd Airborne (under orders from some would-be dictator) descended on your town today, they would have small howitzers, 50-caliber machine guns, Kevlar vests, CS gas with protective masks and suits, and so on. To defeat them, the people would need ready access to the same stuff.

Thus in a PRAGMATIC sense, as well as in principle, individual Americans not only can, but must, possess and be able to quickly and knowledgably use in their own defense, any type of weapon which they can manufacture or purchase.
 
Vin spins a nice line and I agree with him "in theory"; however he ignores a significant practical reality. Both the State and Federal Constitutions were abopted as a compromise between "unrestrained liberty" and a "reasonably ordered society". The constitution enumerates certain limited powers to the government. Among them is the power to wage war in the name of the people. That power grants authority to the government to do things which we as individuals do not have. That is part of the "contract" between "the people" and "the government".

Afghanistan in the midst of a Russian invasion was not an ordered society. They were engaged in open warfare. If we should find ourselves in the same situation, then we too would have Stingers and Howitzers and CS gas at our disposal.

The Constitutions guarantee our individual right to self-defense and our collective right to defend our communities, but IMO, it is not blanket authorization to wage war. It is part of the contract - the government will provide for the common defense.

There is a "layered" defense that is built into the structure of our government to protect the people.

The first layer is the individual who has a right to be armed to defend himself, his family, and his home.

The second layer is the police (and sheriffs) who attempt to deter and capture criminals and quell civil disturbances.

The third layer is the State militia (including the National Guard), which is under the authority of the Governor and stands as a shield to federal oppression as well as foreign invasion.

Finally there is the National Armed Forces, that defend the nations borders and take the fight to the enemies overseas.

The Constitution grants powers to the government for our collective benefit while reserving our individual rights. Under this contract, my right to self defense is not infringed because the government restricts access to nuclear weapons under it's power to wage war.

If the 82nd airborne should descend upon a US city, then it is the right and obligation of the governor to call forth the militia (including the NG) to resist them in the name of the people of the state.
 
The problem with the "where to draw the line" discussion is that it succumbs to exactly the same problem anti-gun folks do: blaming the inanimate object instead of the person wielding it.

Just apply basic safety rules (Cooper's Four Rules) to the issue, and the solution will appear. It's not the ownership of guns per se that's the problem, it's the problem of people pointing them at others without good cause. Likewise, it's not the ownership of nukes per se that's the problem it's the problem that (generally speaking) a nuke is inherently "pointed" at everyone within several miles.

Trying to draw a line based on "arms vs. ARMS", "man-portable vs. crew-served", "conventional vs. WMD", etc. is pointless because such an approach is inherently misguided. Drawing the line on safety elegantly solves the problem: if you can own/wield it safely, fine; if you put anyone at risk (including "pointing" it at anyone without due cause), they have the right to disarm you promptly and through forceful means.
 
If the 82nd airborne should descend upon a US city, then it is the right and obligation of the governor to call forth the militia (including the NG) to resist them in the name of the people of the state.

With what arms? Isn't the point of your overall argument that the militia - to wit, the people - should not have military weapons?

Remember, the NG is in reality just a part of the same group that would be sending in the 82nd Airborne. The NG bases would have been emptied and shut down, or otherwise unpleasantly mobilized or disabled, in anticipation. Tweak your scenario: the 82nd Airborne descends upon the NG bases, taking over all gov't-owned military arms. NOW who does the governor call out, and with what arms?

The point of the 2nd Amendment is that THE PEOPLE have the right to possess arms suitable for MILITARY use in opposition to invasion or tyrrany. That includes crew-served military arms; the gov't's job is to provide arms which the people do not have the funds or inclination to own.
 
The militia needs to be armed at least as well as the army. Jet fighters are out of the practical reach of most militias, but I have no problem with someone rich enough owning one. As far as I'm concerned, every neighborhood should have an anti-aircraft battery and a supply of anti-tank weapons, and the residents should train with them regularly (they should be a "well-regulated" militia). And every home should have at least a battle rifle (FAL, M1A, or similar) and a couple thousand rounds of ammo.

I used to believe that RKBA included nuclear bombs, but I was convinced otherwise by a simple argument. You have a right to own whatever weapons you want as long as you don't point them at me (except in defense of person or property). A nuclear bomb is effectively always pointing at everyone in the blast radius or the fallout region. This restricts ownership of nuclear weapons to people who own large tracts of land in the middle of nowhere.
 
I used to believe that RKBA included nuclear bombs, but I was convinced otherwise by a simple argument. You have a right to own whatever weapons you want as long as you don't point them at me (except in defense of person or property). A nuclear bomb is effectively always pointing at everyone in the blast radius or the fallout region. This restricts ownership of nuclear weapons to people who own large tracts of land in the middle of nowhere.

I agree, but then doesn't that also include anything explosive?

I believe it was Golgo who, in a similar TFL thread, said that many explosives become more and more unstable as time goes on.

Regardless of stability issues though, C-4, crates of grenades, etc. are all "pointing" at many, many people in an urban area.
 
Other explosives have the same area-of-effect concern; the difference is blast radius vs. who is in range. If you can make sure nobody is improperly within the potential blast radius, nobody has the right to disarm you of it. If you're storing it in an apartment building, don't try to store anything bigger than a grenade; if you live in West Nowhere, NV then you can likely store some pretty big stuff safely.

The question isn't what you are "permitted" to own (the 2nd Amendment totally squelches that argument), the question is whether you are improperly putting others at risk, as they have the right to stop you if you do (which includes "pointing" a destructive device at them).
 
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