What might be a rational metric for determining where the second ammendment ends?

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I think a good meter would be that the individuals are allowed to own what ever gov't officials are legally allowed to use in the enforcement of laws against civilians.

That is good. I like that. At least it is a good start (because of course, it can escalate to tanks and attack helicopters, and of course drones, etc., then you are back to the same circular argument).

Maybe a good phrase to include in whatever legislation/concept are the words "a fighting chance" - the intent again is to establish reasonable checks and balances.
 
That is good. I like that. At least it is a good start (because of course, it can escalate to tanks and attack helicopters, and of course drones, etc., then you are back to the same circular argument).

The best course as i see it would be the passing of legislation that prevents such weapons from being used against civilians.
 
The best course as i see it would be the passing of legislation that prevents such weapons from being used against civilians.
Interesting.

And yet, there is also the very legitimate need for LEOs to use said weapons against bona fide CRIMINALS.

So, again, very difficult issue.

(Also gets into definition of "criminal").
 
Prior to WW1 private individuals or companies supplied volunteer military units with what would be called heavy weapons and things like Gatling Guns and crew served machine guns and I would presume Howitzers were owned by individuals or companies.
The restriction was in the punishment for their misuse. We didn't always need laws to prevent us from doing things to one another, the point at which that changed would be a good place to start rather than taking away more rights.
 
In principle, why would a personal nuke be "obviously" prohibited?

Do you believe that my personal nuke would be for sale to anyone with a big enough pile of cash or that I would acquire/build it only because I intend to use it?

Lots of collectors own firearms that are lodged in safes or display cases and are never used. Similarly, I could own a nuke with no intent to use it. As long as I have the provisions in place to ensure its integrity and security (which would be enormously complex and expensive, to be sure), my nuke would be no more dangerous than my shotguns.

I have no interest in owning a nuke. But 2A doesn't say I can't.
 
To allow private possession of any weapon, no matter how powerful and terrible, would unbalance the checks far beyond anything in our history. The biggest threat to liberty is concentration of power and weapons of mass destruction possessed by individuals or groups does just that.

I would respectfully say that if you truly believe that, then it is in your interest to actively support efforts to repeal the second amendment.

When the 2A was written, the states believed that the biggest threat to liberty was the concentration of power in the control of the federal government. The intention of the Constitution was to leave the states sovereign in all matters not explicitly detailed in the Constitution.

As it turns out, the drafters of the document were exceptionally prescient - a mere 70 years after its adoption the governing structure it had meant to implement was all but gone, and we had the Civil War to prove just what the concentration of power in the federal government could accomplish.

Even before there was a USA, men died to protect the arms at Barrett's Farm and other places. Those arms were the WMD of their day, and the second amendment was written specifically to keep those arms in the hands of ordinary citizens.
 
The purpose of the Bill of Rights is explained in the Preamble: To prevent abuse of its power by the State.

At the time of the writing of the BOR, the citizenry had parity with the government, insofar as arms. In order that the State cannot use force to abuse its power, then, it seems to me that the citizenry should still have parity.

Art
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So it goes something like "shall not be infringed"
seem pretty plain to me

many of the founding fathers were against the BOR as they felt it was pointless as there was no need to enumerate these rights as that was what they just had fought a war for.
 
So then please explain to me why Bin Laden failed to acquire a nuke. He had the funds and the purpose. Law enforcement efforts prevented it
Riiiight -- a Chicago cop stopped him.

Please give us a cite on how "law enforcement" prevented Bin Laden from getting a nuke.

And while you're at it, explain how "law enforcement" prevented China, Israel, India, Pakistan and North Korea from getting nukes.
 
I'd like to buy a MiG. No, really, I would. I even have the money. But I'm prohibited from doing so - at least, in a full military role (you know, with guns and targeting gear intact). I can buy a MiG that's been stripped down; a functional one that'll almost touch Mach 2 is for sale in California right now.

The 2nd Amendment says I should be able to buy a FUNCTIONAL one.

The Illinois Air National guard in Springfield lost their F-16's - they were sold to another country.

Where's the backup plan? It SHOULD be the people of this fine country. :)
 
Just because something is ALLOWED (i.e., legal) does not necessarily mean I *must* do it or buy it or say it, etc. but it's just the principle of the thing, and a clear yardstick to gauge the level of democracy/freedom in a society.

In terms of analyzing what "should" be limited under the 2A, what about limiting the 1A? What are the things we are not allowed to say under Freedom of Speech? (I recall the age old answer that we are not allowed to yell "Fire" just for the heck of it, because it undermines the safety of the fellow American).

Philosophically, should a person be allowed to yell "Fire" anyway, just in principle?
 
Once you get about half way down the list the prices alone would restrict almost every individual. Have you priced Nuclear Submarines lately? Only a hand full of COUNTRIES can afford such things.

BTW, flamethrowers are LEGAL as they do not fall under the NFA of 1934. Only a few states have outlawed them.

To answer your question, I would say that your rights end at the point that owning a particular thing puts other people in harm’s way, for example:

Should you have the right to own a 500 gallon drum of gasoline?

The answer is totally dependent on your ability to store it safely.

If you had it in the middle of an 800 acre farm no one would care. if you kept it in the back bedroom of a high-rise apartment it would pose an immediate danger to others.

Explosives and heavy ordinance are no different. They must be stored and secured properly. Even if you were one of a hand full of individuals on earth who could afford some of the heavy weapons listed. you would still have to have a small military base and hire a private army to guard it. That would rule out almost everyone except a hand full of billionairs who have better things to spend their money on.
 
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I'd probably be ok with stopping it somewhere btw 15-17 on that list. I think that's a good balance between ability to take back the country vs infringing on the pursuit of happiness.
For example, nuclear/chemical weapons can be very nasty and give a small group of people a disproportiate power over others. Several dedicated people with a nuke in north jersey could have a huge impact over 100s of years. I don't believe the founding fathers would have wanted that. It's pretty clear looking at the debate btw how they firmed the senate and the house that they wanted the people to have power but did not fully trust the people example;
Madison(the primary author of the constitution) felt that the people should elect the house and then congressman should elect senators. The same reason for electoral votes they are there theoretically to prevent say a super popular man becoming president that thinking men knew him to be bad fir the country ex(hitler). If course this was put in Place before the two- party system.

My point is the founders wanted BALANCE, they WANTED a government that allowed the pursuit if happiness, not one that some nut could legally keep a nuke around until he decided to commit suicide and take thousands of people with him. I'm not arguing that it can't happen anyway. I'm saying that the government(the people) should be allowed to ATTEMPT to stop it. Obviously they could not restrict things which didn't exist.
We've all seen pictures of Hiroshima, do you think the founders would want one man to have that kind of power? The obviously didn't think king George should.
 
If you look back in history to what is arguably the birthplace of modern, western democracy (Athens), private citizens could and did purchase/produce the most powerful and significant military weapon of the time...the trireme. (and, of course, the arms and armour necessary for hoplite warfare)
 
If you look back in history to what is arguably the birthplace of modern, western democracy (Athens), private citizens could and did purchase/produce the most powerful and significant military weapon of the time...the trireme. (and, of course, the arms and armour necessary for hoplite warfare)
^

There is no end. We have the right to anything, and everything, the government has - PERIOD.
 
There is no end. We have the right to anything, and everything, the government has - PERIOD.

As long as you have the same means to secure it that the government has.
That pretty much rules out everything past about number 15. Not many people can afford a private bomb range and a full time security force to guard their toys.
 
I might be wrong but I don't think absolutely unlimited access to all weapons is necessarily good for society either, as in the case of a nuke or other such.

What about this: What if the arms were limited to arm types that could only be effective at repelling tyranny, if a lot of people got together to use them. In other words, it would then depend on a principle much like what is (supposedly) the jury system, where the judgment of what is fair and what is tyranny, depends on the agreement by you and your peers (family and friends and neighbors).

Thus, no one person would own such a powerful device as a nuke, but if everyone agreed that something was not right, they could use the available arms as a plausible deterrent, as a collective group?
 
The Army paid 6.2 MILLION dollars each for the last run of Abrams tanks 1n 1996. Adjusted for inflation that would be over 8.5 million in 2012 dollars. I wonder how much it cost to shoot the main gun just once? Probably more than you have in your tricked out custom AR.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_Abrams

Simple economics would make private ownership of heavy weapons a moot point if they were legal.
 
Because without a limit the only limiting factor would be wealth and any person or corporation with the means would be allowed to buy a black market nuke or build their own. Far less means would be required to build a dirty bomb. Why that needs to be prevented should be obvious.

That is ideological rhetoric far outside the bounds of reality. Individual ownership of a nuke would only infringe on rights, such as to life, than it would ever protect.

Are you saying that private ownership of all of the listed items is rational?!

So write a constitutional amendement and get it ratified. How hard could it be to get 3/4 of the states to go along with an amendement to ban nukes from private ownership?

I'll tell you why it will never happen. It sets precident. It means that everyone has to accept the the Second Amendment means exactly what it says. And by extension all the others.

Imagine the consequences of ratifying a constitutional amendement to limit the rights of the people... you know WE THE PEOPLE... the actual real sovereigns of this Great Nation. People might actually begin to think that there is more at stake. They might actually begin to pay attention. They may even wake up.
 
Citizens are armed...slaves are not

The ability of a single individual to control or overpower the government, especially a democratically elected one, with no regard to the wishes of the people is tyranny.
I don't think one man, no matter how good a shot, is going to over power the government with any number of guns. And even if he could, I still believe that would be better than the alternative, which is the government doing as it pleases with the people. The ability to "bite back" is what makes us citizens, not slaves. One of the first moves that the government makes before taking total control is disarming the populace. That doesn't mean taking away all guns...just the ones that woud let them put up a good fight when the "brown shirts" come. If you don't believe me...as someone living in Germany in 1938.
 
Do the Federalist Papers outline what was meant? I believe they do.

Original intent means the Constitution means what it means at the time it was written. Otherwise, it's a "Living Constitution", which is a prescription for tyranny. We have seen this in action through the use of the Commerce Clause. Congress KNOWS the Commerce Clause was NEVER intended to control how a surgeon operates simply because the scalpel crossed state lines. Yet, it uses the Commerce Clause to do so.

Therefore, the government is supposed to have NO power to control personal arms. I believe the limitation was "cannon". I may be wrong and will have to go and read those sections again. Perhaps the argument should be all about "Tank Control" and "Bomber Control", not "Gun Control". I think there is no argument that nuclear weapons in private hands is silly. I think that ownership of cannon and tank would more apply to larger corporations, citizen groups, and the extremely wealthy. Saying that it would be impossible to have a tank or cannon assumes only individual ownership; I see no reason for my HOA to not have a tank for defense of the community during riots or similar. Talk about hard on the pavement!

Another point: the government is using the Commerce Clause to thwart the Second Amendment. The FFL system, various NFA rules, and so forth are all "justified" by the Commerce Clause power. Again, I believe that one part of the Constitution should not be used to nullify another part of it. Doing so leads to tyranny, as we're seeing now.
 
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Invention

What follows is a half-baked thought experiment intended to prompt contemplation of a broader scope.

Try not to take it too seriously.



I see a lot of "thinking inside the box" in this thread.

Let us say, for the sake of discussion, that I invent a light, fast, reusable, highly maneuverable spacecraft. Something with the ability to take off from wherever, land wherever, and haul a payload of ten tons or so. Heck, I might name it Serenity, if I'm in the mood.

It is entirely my creation. Such a feat is not that far outside the realm of possibility in today's technological context. We already have viable examples of privately built spacecraft, this is simply an extrapolation of that.

Let's just pause there for a moment.

My ship. I own it. I own all the technology in it. Okay? It's mine.

With this ship, I can take off from anywhere, hit a high or low orbit, do whatever it is I want to do there, and land wherever I want.

Now, what is immediately clear to the military mind is that I have achieved a level of mobility that far outstrips any kind of existing military transportation. Their immediate worry becomes that I will have the means to deliver ordnance or forces on target unimpeded by any earth-bound air or naval force.

They would immediately lobby Congress and the Oval Office to a) confiscate the technology, and b) outlaw its use by civilians.

And why would that be?

The simple answer is that they are intensely jealous of their monopoly on force, their monopoly on the ability to wage war. In their world, it is simply unacceptable that someone -- a plain, ordinary non-governmental someone -- should have any degree of power or mobility that rivals theirs.

They have become accustomed to "owning all the guns," so to speak, and in their world, such power and mobility should only be in the hands of people whom they trust.

And we'll pause for a moment on that one, too.

Governments (and militaries) go to some lengths to ensure that they have a force monopoly.

When governments actually achieve a force monopoly, history tells us that the outcomes -- for the population at large -- are generally heinous.


Now, my little spaceship, in its original configuration, doesn't even sport a cannon. No laser, no phaser, no proton torpedoes, and yet dot-gov and its minions are decidedly uncomfortable with the private ownership of such mobility. They're going to do their level best to "acquire" this thing and to ban private ownership of it.

They will use laws, regulations, executive orders, or just brute force.

Have a read through the classifications of weapons regulated by the ATF, and notice that they have a neat catch-all called "destructive device" which they can, at will, use as a label for anything someone invents that's far enough outside the box for what's called "arms" today.

I'm sure there's a nice catch-all somewhere in a law or regulation that authorizes -- or can be "interpreted" to authorize -- the dot-gov to seize something that renders their whole air force and navy irrelevant, even without any armament or ordnance aboard.

So, there's a point here . . .

As others have already pointed out, repeatedly, the original notion of "keep and bear arms" was to give the citizenry parity with whatever an army might have.

The absurd case (or is it?) is the A-bomb case: dot-gov has those, so hey, so should the people. I would submit that this is, in fact, the absurd case, since the use of A-bombs on home soil would be a self-defeating application. The A-bomb is the ultimate indiscriminate weapon. Any government willing to use them to put down a revolt should have already been taken down by other means. So, in the interest of sanity, we'll exclude the A-bomb from the discussion.


Let's go back to the phrase "people they can trust."

The dot-gov and its minions issue security clearances to . . . people they can trust.

People they can trust.

And yet, what is it we observe in government? Unbridled abuse of power, pervasive corruption, and arbitrary oppression of selected segments of the population. It's a matter of degree, of course, but you have to appreciate the irony that the largest abuser of power, the outfit most likely to enact treaties and trade agreements that compromise domestic prosperity is the government itself. And yet they are the ones who issue "security clearances" to those they can trust.

And they are the ones who lay claim to a force monopoly. (They're also the folks to get to confine your mobility by "authorizing" your travel outside the country.)


And yet that was never the original intent of our founders. When government fears the people, there is liberty.


So the original premise in the thread has to do with the appropriate "limits" on the Second Amendment, but an underlying assumption is that government is in charge.

I've got a space ship that puts me totally beyond the reach of the government force monopoly.

I can guarantee you that they will not let that go unchallenged.

Because it is only RIGHT that government control ultimate force and ultimate mobility.


So here's my suggestion for a "metric" of how far the Second Amendment goes: that the private citizen shall be empowered to own and deploy whatever level of arms and transport is required to make government entirely uncomfortable with the idea of ever meeting the citizenry in open battle.

Governments arm themselves sufficient to constitute a deterrent to hostile nations.

It is only fitting that the citizens arm themselves sufficient to constitute a deterrent to a hostile government.


The rest is easy. Just figure out what kind of hardware that is, and there you go!

(Oh, and BTW, if you don't like the spaceship idea, let's invent a communications device that doesn't depend on any existing infrastructure at all, has unlimited range, uses no regulate-able spectrum, and is undetectable by any existing intercept technology. Happy now?)​

 
I'll try to clarify what I said earlier, since it seems to have been mistaken:

I would never ask anyone to read this entire essay (I really didn't intend for it to be an essay). But I am an engineer, so precision is important to me, and I am not an absolutist on this issue, so please forgive the length ;).

The inherent right to resist a non-representative government rests with the populace rather than with actual individuals.* Small, armed groups of separatists who flout the laws cannot exist in a healthily governed society. There has to be a limiting factor that prevents one small group or individual from subverting the others.

My Argument for Regulation:

When a power gap arises between two groups, the weaker party has two options; rise to close the gap, or drag the other side down through some other advantage. Both methods have different valid uses (US building nukes to check the Russians, and quietly subverting their Bloc, respectively). Since it is not currently possible for average Americans to rise to the challenge posed by today's commonly available firearms (i.e. practical/cheap Class III armor), there needs to be some regulation and limitation. Simply to place a check on the offensive edge one man can easily have over another in daily life. If there were no restrictions (legal or otherwise), criminals could easily afford true "heavy" weapons that the rest of us would have an even harder time defending against daily.

While regulations do keep guns out of the hands of the most vulnerable (the innocent citizens closest to, and most indistinguishable from, criminals), they do help limit the absolute tactical advantage of evildoers. Violence is a daily job for criminals; they will always buy the best available, while the poorest will still be unable to afford anything with which to defend themselves.

By putting (for the most part) a ceiling on the means of violence available to bad guys, the advantage they hold over the law-abiding citizens can be limited (but never eliminated). The problem is, many gun laws only perform the half their function (reducing availabilty to lawful arms-bearers), without truly limiting availability to criminals.

My Argument Against Regulation:
Further restricting the means for violence available to a population does decrease the potential harm any one individual can inflict. England has a very low gun crime rate simply due to the absence of guns. But the potential harm (while reduced) posed by a determined individual always remains, which is why knife crimes are horrifyingly common there. England has implemented a ban on longer (3", I believe :rolleyes:) knives in order to solve this problem "once and for all."

Obviously, this route is a race to the bottom, in which the populace is utterly disarmed, leaving everyone solely at the mercy of the inherent strength of their fellow man. A brutal society in the truest sense of the word. Crime would continue, mitigated but unabated. Only now the State has truly omnipotent authority over the populace, who no longer has any means to resist whatsoever. A government without even the remotest fear of violent overthrow has no need to be responsible to its citizens, and will cease defending them. We form governments to protect us so we don't have to, not because we are incapable.

My "Happy Compromise"
I believe that if we simply limit the modernity of weapons available to the populace, we could properly balance the scales between The People, The Government, and The Evil People. If weapons tech only became available to the populace, say, 30 years after its invention, we would always have a substantial check on our government's materiel advantage, while the crooks would never have anything better than "hand-me-downs" with which to resist the rule of law on a daily basis.

This is kind of what happened in Libya and some other Arab nations of late, where the Elite State Guard/Mercs had much better weapons, but common units composed of the populace were stuck with ancient (but plentiful) weaponry. Even though they were ill-equipped (it seemed like they only had RPG's and crank-operated AA guns), the regular Libyan Army/People was still able to pose a grave threat to its tyrranical government because of its large numbers (whether they were strong enough to win without foreign involvement, we'll never know). Keeping this last route open in the worst of all possible situations is what the Founding Fathers wanted our government to ensure. The other Articles and Amendments were to ensure the 2nd would never need to be called upon.

I will say, though, that we've seen numerous "successful" revolutions in nations without an armed populace, because the military sympathized, and then revolted. So long as the military is composed of the governed, they will be sympathetic to the cause of their countrymen. I believe the tiny fraction of our society that chooses to directly participate in the military anymore is a bigger long-term threat to freedom than any current gun regulation.


TCB

Governments arm themselves sufficient to constitute a deterrent to hostile nations.

It is only fitting that the citizens arm themselves sufficient to constitute a deterrent to a hostile government.
Hey, this guy gets it! :)
I would also add that it's fitting/proper for a government to arm itself sufficiently against its own citizens' threats (i.e. against crime, organized crime, isolated riots, secession). A government that doesn't "govern" isn't much use, either. Checks/balances must apply both ways, which is why this is such a difficult issue;
When does the citizens' right to challenge the government become an impediment to governance?


*(I must say I highly disapprove of "People's Revolt" -type revolutions since they have such a dismal record forming better governments in their wake. America and post-war Europe/Japan were successful because they were never in a state of anarchy while their young governments matured. America had been independent in all but name for years before England tried to implement new taxes and regulations, and in the occupied WWII states the US acted as a stabilizer long enough for the new governments to fully take the reigns. I can't seem to think of an example of a kind government following in a murdered tyrant's wake...But there is no other recourse for a people truly tormented, so it must remain an option of last resort)
 
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If you can even afford half of the stuff on that list, then, more power to you.
 
(sarcasm ahead...)

There's a reason why megalomaniacs with advanced, privately-owned weapons only appear in James Bond films - the true megalomaniacs are involved in global corporations and their lives aren't exciting enough to be made into movies. Or perhaps, they control the film industry and won't approve a plot line too close to home. :)

Seriously, I just realized the major fault with this discussion of limits to the 2nd Amendment, in regard to protection from a tyrannical government and a balance with the danger imposed by permitting owning certain classes of weapons.

A recognized threat to national security is digital warfare.

How much computing power, and what kind of virus-authoring software should an individual be permitted to own? At what point does it become an obvious threat to national security and justify a no-knock police raid?

And, when your future smart phone sounds an alert that the approaching pedestrian is attempting to compromise your RFID-enabled device and steal your identity, is that sufficient cause to trigger a local EMP that destroys his smart phone?

While the development of this new technology may not make anyone immune to good old-fashioned physical attack, it may introduce new concerns of protecting yourself.

So, does the 2nd Amendment cover portable ECW devices?

We're talking parity, here.
 
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