Gun For a Story

[Steamboy]

I'm writing an alternate history story set in the 1880s and thought it would be a good idea to have experts in firearms critique if a fictional firearm that is to be in the story is technically realistic or not.

The firearm is a shot-pistol (shotgun pistol), 20mm smooth bore. It is constructed of high chromium steel, to resist corrosion even in salty environments. Barrel length is 32cm. It has a revolver-like drum that holds four shells, which is advanced by the spent gas from the previous shot. It's capable of firing a number of specialized shells in addition to conventional shot and slugs (would have quite a recoil though), such as compressed rubber slugs, bolo-rounds (two lead or steel weights connected by a length of thin steel cable) and SCIMTR-like shells.

What sort of accuracy could such a weapon be expected to have, given its short--by shotgun standards--barrel length?

 

[Steve499]

Not sure about the steel, was that do-able in 1880? A revolving cylinder can be rotated by recoil (Fosbery system) and John Browning managed to use gas trapped at the muzzle and actuating a long, exposed rod to cycle the action on some experimental rifles. In order for the fictional firearm to be believable, for me, anyway, you would have to go into detail about how such a system of revolving a cylinder by gas actually worked, and that might be tiresome to some readers.

It would be more technologically likely that if someone in the 1880s wanted a very large bore handgun, they might take one of the very large double rifles or shotguns widely available in that era and just cut them off. 8 guage shotguns were made back then and John Ross, author of UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES, owns a 4 bore double rifle. Handloading was common back then and if one decided to put something unusually exotic into one of those big cases, if it went in, it could be shot out.

I'm a gun nut. I don't know everything about them, but, when I am reading a book where the author plays fast and loose with his story guns, I rarely finish the book and I never buy another one written by him (more often her).

Steve

 

[Jim Watson]

Not really feasible ca 1880.
The alloys weren't there, and you don't do gas operation with black powder.

You might want to look at the Roper revolving shotgun, or the Burgess sliding pistol grip pump action.

By the way, those gimmick loads don't really work very well, either.

 

[robert garner]

Google Howdah Pistol; right period, right gun. A howdah was the basket you rode in on an elephant's back , the pistol was used to dislodge an attacking tiger. Now in addition to the cartridges and beer you owe for being a new member, I expect a signed first edition, which I have faith will be above average,being as you're doing some research 'fore putting pen to paper!
robert

 

[DrDeFab]

My main problem is the gas-operated revolver action - revolvers don't NEED to be semi-auto. The Webly-Fosbery of 1902 (a recoil operated design) was a commercial flop, largely because the complicated mechanism was prone to malfunction.

A sawed-off 10-gauge lever-action Winchester 1887 (or Alternative History analog) would be entirely appropriate, and has a 5+1 capacity. If you're worried that the tube mag doesn't allow quick selection of the next "special" round, I can see that, but remember that a semi-auto revolver wouldn't be much better - you would want manual selection.

As for the range, the barrel length on a shotgun has little to do with that - it's not for ballistics, or even muzzle velocity, it's about the aim and "swing". The usually quoted effective range of a cylinder-bore is 20 yards.

 

[Steamboy]

To Steve499: I thought they existed, but I checked again and the stainless available at the time was too brittle. Even knives made of it wouldn't have been good, to say nothing of a firearm. Probably fragment like a hand grenade.

A question to anybody, other than using corrosion resistant steel alloys or constant oiling, how is rust prevented on and in firearms?
Does coating the steel in bronze and then giving the bronze a patina with potassium sulfide sound plausible?
The fictional gun is a custom job for a wealthy client, so cost and mass-producibility are not really an issue.



To Jim Watson: Thanks. Didn't know that about black powder, really fowled up the works. I'll probably just forget the semi-auto feature, since as DrDeFab notes, it wouldn't need it, and would just add unnecessary complexity (what's not there can't break).

Hmmm, interesting shot guns those are.


Hmmm, I guess I can see that with the bolo-shots. Have you personally fired one or seen one fired? If so, what did they do to the target?
Rubber shots seem to work well enough on rioters. SCIMTR-shot seems to have worked well enough, just too expensive. At least according to Wikipedia, which is certainly not infallible.

 

[JesseL]

A single action revolver could be made into a gas-operated semi-auto relatively simply if you think about it.

All you need is a gas piston to recock the hammer, and a disconnecter to prevent it from going full-auto and you're there. There have been quite a few instances of SAA revolvers that went full auto because the firing pin was too sharp and started piercing the primers. Escaping gas would blow the hammer back, recocking the hammer, advancing the cylinder, and allowing the hammer to fall again.

 

[mister_wilburn]

http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg186-e.htm

Its a semi-auto revolver, not gas but blowback operated.

 

[HiroProX]

Something like the Mateba would be excessively complicated, and probably require machining ability beyond that of the time.

One interesting option I've seen in alternate history stories were "wind-up" firearms.

Personally, why not a double action revolver chambered in a shotgun loading?

 

[JesseL]

You should note a couple common barrel length myths:

Barrel length has only a tangential effect on accuracy because of it's relation to sight radius for iron sights.

"Sawed off" shotguns have a larger spread than their unmolested brethren simply because they have had their choke cut off, basically just leaving them with a cylinder bore.

 

[Thefabulousfink]

Prevent rust in pre-stainless steel times? Charcoal blueing, oil, and near daily maintenance. There's an old saying, "Rust never sleeps" the only way to prevent it is to check and clean constantly. In the Nineteenth Century people who cared about their guns would clean and oil them often, people who didn't....didn't.

Obviously this would be easy to depict in your story: if your character is a professional or gun nut he would spend any down time maintaining his gear (many on this forum consider it almost meditative). If he is inexperienced, careless, or reluctant, obviously gun maintenance wont be high on his to-do list. You could even have parts break or contrast him with a more experienced mentor figure.

(sorry... it's your book, write it how you want)

As for special rounds... stuff like that was used in cannons with good effect for hundreds of years. A form of chain-shot fired out of a shotgun might be effective against ropes and rigging, but with limited range and accuracy. Soft rubber for non-leathal rounds probably wasn't available in 1880 but rock-salt was a very nasty way to wound but not kill.

Good luck on your story, and while your here be sure and read Nightcrawler and Corriea's stories.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=207390&highlight=nightcrawler

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=259444&highlight=nightcrawler

 

[SuperNaut]

Oil-quenching would be a good method of adding carbon and corrosion reisistance to 1880's-era steel. To be period-friendly it could be whale oil. Oil-quenching gives steel a really cool patina, kind of bronze/champagne when quenched for short periods of time, all the way up to deep blue when quenched for a long period.

You could ditch the gas-operated cylinder, and go with a belt-fed handgun. Your character could have suspenders festooned with little six-shot belts.

That'd be steampunk as all hell.

 

[Jim Watson]

Lancaster made four-barrelled shotguns and were a well respected company; cost would have been ample to get the attention of any tycoon. They had a couple of designs with awkward looking ring triggers and quasi-double action, but Roger Barlow had their last gun; actually bought unfinished and completed for his collection. It had two triggers and a loop lever like a Winchester. Load, fire off two barrels at the incoming pheasants, rack the lever to recock as you turned, and fire the other two barrels at the passing birds.

There was some work at the time on actually tin-plating smallarms for naval service. Quakenbush and Merwin Hulbert were doing really gorgeous nickel plating in the XIX century; plated guns were popular not just for looks but for corrosion resistance against black powder, chlorate primers, and the environment. Guns of the quality of the Lancaster were often gold plated inside to protect the works against corrosion without having to disassemble complicated lockwork in the field.

 

[Caimlas]

A question to anybody, other than using corrosion resistant steel alloys or constant oiling, how is rust prevented on and in firearms?
Does coating the steel in bronze and then giving the bronze a patina with potassium sulfide sound plausible?
The fictional gun is a custom job for a wealthy client, so cost and mass-producibility are not really an issue.

If I were doing the writing, I would most certainly have the exterior coated in brass, if indeed there's a reason for it. While it's not necessarily more corrosion resistant, it is (in my experience) much easier to clean corrosion off of than steel. I seem to recall that old sea-faring vessels would have brass hardware as opposed to, say, case iron.

Realistically, I think you could even put it in the bore. Brass is more dense than lead, so if soft lead will be the primary projectile type...

Oh yeah, and I second the "don't do stupid gun tricks" sentiment. I don't want silly stuff like that in the gun porn I'm reading. Leave him with (say) two sawed-off side-by-side shotties, if you must.

 

[Steamboy]

To Caimlas: Actually, the beauty of bronze is that you wouldn't want to clean it. Unlike corrosion on steels, the corrosion patina that forms on bronze protects it from further damage. That's why Greek and Roman statues cast in bronze that have spent over two thousand years in the ocean still look good as new. That's why ships' propellers are made from it.

I was thinking that about the barrel as well. Cannons were made from bronze for centuries, so apparently it worked.


What do you mean by "stupid gun tricks"? I have no plans to write anything silly, such as cutting ropes with bullets, knocking people through plate glass windows etc. Violating Newtonian physics in my writing is not what I'm about.

 

[Jim Watson]

Bronze is good stuff in salt air (and water) no doubt about it. It has the advantage of being easily worked, too. But I do not know about getting it down as a plating over steel. Maybe it is possible but I have not seen or heard of it. Maybe you could research that part. [A quick Google shows that it is possible and avaiable NOW.]

As I said the corrosion resistant finishes of the XIX century were nickel and occasionally tin, with gold in the lockwork of truly fine guns.

 

[MachIVshooter]

The alloys weren't there, and you don't do gas operation with black powder

It could work. Like, two or three times maybe

A question to anybody, other than using corrosion resistant steel alloys or constant oiling, how is rust prevented on and in firearms?

Nickel plating was the most common corrosion-resistant finish of the late 19th. Not as tough as chrome amd no where near as good as stainless, but it did work. Also, the finish work and bluing done back then was quite good. The better (smoother) the finish on steel, the more naturally resistant it is to corrosion.

The firearm is a shot-pistol (shotgun pistol), 20mm smooth bore. It is constructed of high chromium steel, to resist corrosion even in salty environments. Barrel length is 32cm.

Not to nitpick and I don't know where your story takes place, but in 19th century America, the metric system simply did not exist. Firearm caliber was denoted in decimal inch or gauge (bore). A 20mm (.787") bore is roughly equivalent to 10 gauge (.770").

For your firearm to mirror the era, I would do something along the lines of a 10 gauge lever-actuated revolving cylinder shotgun with no buttstock and some type of forward grip. Though never actually made, it would be feasible with 19th century technology and tools.

 

[Steamboy]

To SuperNaut: Interesting idea about the belt-fed gun. Not sure if it'd fit this particular character that is to own the shot-revolver, but I do see a use for it. Thanks.

Have there actually ever been belt-fed shotguns? Suppose they should be able to work.

 

[Steamboy]

To MachIVshooter: Thank you, but I know. The story takes place in Europe, India and perhaps elsewhere. The gun was created in a custom gunworks in France, which used the metric system at the time.

A forward grip does sound like a good idea, perhaps on another gun design. It's pretty important that it remain pistol-sized. It needs to be concealable--it doesn't belong to a mercenary type character (full time, anyway), but to a wealthy industrialist/inventor/scientist.

Could a forward grip on a pistol work, or would it be better to hold the rear grip double-handed?

 

[Jim Watson]

French and other European gunmakers in nations on the metric system made (and still make) shotguns in the traditional pound-based gauges. The only consideration of metrics was the bore diameter shown in the proof marks. So a shotgun would have "18.2" stamped discreetly under the barrels but it would still shoot 12 gauge shells. They were realistic about ammunition resupply, as your protagonist should be.

As said. 20mm is a oversize 10 gauge.
That is way too much for a holsterable hand weapon. The Ithaca Auto-Burglar Gun was standard at 20 gauge, as was the Remington Model 17 pump, the most popular gun of its day to be cut down at barrel and butt into a Whippet (Fast like a Whippet dog when you whip it out from under your trench coat.) So was the Colt Defender eight barrel.
http://www.guntech.com/hillberg/
Howdah guns were commonly .577 Snider, which is close to 20 bore.

The Winchester Liberator 4-barrel started out in 16 gauge for controllability but was increased to 12 gauge for ammunition standardization with GI pump guns; but it had a wire stock and was not concealable.

Yes, there have been many larger bore shotguns cut down for concealment, but usually by criminals for intimidation, not for regular shooting. Few bankrobbers practice much, the Ayoob article about Baby Face Nelson notwithstanding.
Remember, Pahoo was really shooting blanks.

A front pistol grip would be useful and practical, see the Beretta 93R machine pistol.
http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg137-e.htm

 

[leadcounsel]

I'm under the (possibly wrong) impression that a bolo would be used to ensnare or trip someone or otherwise non-lethal. However, I think that a bolo fired from a gun (even if it did open and work) would probably just slice through a human target instead of tripping as intended. In short, it would be lethal. So, what's the point of the bolo?

 

[Dravur]

let's see...

a 20mm bore built into a revolver...

Wouldn't the Cylinder be HUGE?
Wouldn't the workings be a Rube Goldberg entanghlement of gears, gadgets and op-rods?

It seems like a mag fed gun like the one from Runaway that Gene Simmons used would be cool. The mag in front of the trigger, in a drop leg holster like the Mare's leg 94.

You could have a belt with a few mags with varying rounds.
How about sticky goo rounds?
Rubber ball rounds?
live gopher rounds?
Batarang rounds?
Insta Slurpie rounds?

Imagination is a terrible thing to waste.

 

[Jim Watson]

the point of the bolo?

Same as any of that stuff, to sell to the credulous, to impress the impressionable.

Elmer Keith said that it was possible to split and string buckshot on fishing line to hold a tight pattern, but a test with targets showed wild designs, not rounded patterns you get with a proper choke.

 

[Justin]

By your name and what you've posted, I assume this is going to be a steam punk kind of story?

If so, it might be helpful to know where and how technological development in your imagined world diverged from the actual time period.

For a semi-auto revolver, take a look at the Mateba or the Webley-Fosbery Auto Revolver.

 

[Molasses]

I'm gonna second the whole chopped M-1887 Winchester idea. If you're not familiar with them, think the whole motorcycle chase segment from the first "Terminator" movie. It'd be pretty long for a one-hand gun, but one HECK of a lot flatter than any revolver of comparable bore size. Could probably fit into some kind of shoulder-esque rig or an over-the-shoulder setup on the back.

Going off my M-1901 (product improved 10ga M-1887-lower one in the pic), it looks like 24 3/4" from the mag tube ring to the rear of the lever or 25 3/4" to the rear of the "knob" on the grip.

It could do the quick switch to specialist ammo, one round at a time; when the action is opened, the "next" round from the magazine is on the carrier.

If the carrier is pushed completely down (out of line with the chamber) and a round is directly inserted into the chamber by hand and the action closed, everything works normally from there. (next pic taken pointed the opposite direction from last)

Kind of a variation on the loading routine used by lever shotgun users in CAS.

Winchester actually played with a screwball .70-150 rifle cartridge for a modified '87...they made exactly one and decided against it after testing.(ouch) I suppose your wealthy person in the story could go with a 10ga/20mm pistolized equivalent, if he wanted to spend time wearing a cast.