Gun Misfired Twice - Is it a Primer Problem?

[archerben]

I bought a new Howa 25-06 back in January that I've probably put about 150 rounds through (all reloads). In the last half dozen trigger pulls it has misfired on me twice (to top it off, both misfires occured while shooting at deer). I've pulled the bolt apart and the firing pin/bolt assembly all look very clean and well lubed. I called Howa and was told that the problem was most likely due to the primers being seated too deeply and that the primer should be flush with the case head. After doing a search here on THR, it appears as that most here would argue just the opposite. Rather that the primers might not be seated deep enough and that they are cushioning the firing pin. After looking at one of the two cartridges that misfired I found that the primer was flush with the case head. Does anybody have any advice on where to go from here? I've got a Whitetail hunt in a week and a half and would really like to feel good about resolving this issue before then.

 

[presspuller]

I can not buy into the seating them flush myself. Goes against everything that I have ever heard and know to be true.
If the rounds fired on the second try then I would think it HAS got to be the primers.
Good luck.

 

[Harley Quinn]

Are they CCI primers?

 

[archerben]

They are Winchester primers which I primed with a hand priming tool. The first of the two misfires I tried firing again and it went. I have not tried firing the 2nd misfired cartridge yet as I quickly loaded another, which did fire, thus leaving me with a dead deer to take care of.

 

[The Bushmaster]

Oh come on now. Just because they are or might be CCI primers doesn't mean a thing. I've been using CCI primers in my rifles and handguns without even one failure to fire for over 20 years. But if he failed to seat his primers all the way then he would have a primer problem. Especially if they fired on the second or third try. Primers must be seated below flush to be seated. Brand has little to do with it. Some of my CCI primers that I use in my rifles are over ten years old and still do the job if seated properly.

I'm so tired of this brand thing.:banghead: I use CCI and Winchester primers to adjust velocity +/- 50 fps...I use Remington in my Lee Auto prime too. And federal as well... No problems with any of these falsehoods...

 

[rcmodel]

It could be you are over-sizing the cases.
If you push the shoulders back too far, it is the same as excess headspace.

It is also the same as seating the primers too deeply, as the case goes in the chamber too deep, and some firing pins might have trouble reaching them.

Suggest you back off your sizing die a little and see if the cases still chamber freely. Keep backing off until you notice resistance when closing the bolt.

At that point, turn the die back in 1/8 - 1/4 turn and lock the clamp ring. That should be about perfect for hunting ammo.

And I agree with The Bushmaster!
If your gun won't work with CCI primers, it's a gun problem, not a primer problem.

I've used CCI primers almost since the company started making them, with nary a problem, ever.


rcmodel

 

[Harley Quinn]

The reason for the question about CCI:

Is, I have been told they are one of the hardest of all the primers and so I was asking a question.

Asking the question, if they are CCI, surely does not imply anything wrong with the primers.

I could easily have asked which primer are you using and then several of you would have said, it is not the primers fault it is the rifle...

Many times the primer is not fully seated and that becomes the problem. For it moves and does not get struck hard enough.
But that is exactly what the OP is suggesting to help with the problem

The head space problem you are talking about, could very well be the problem rcmodel.

 

[FieroCDSP]

Are you using a pocket uniformer, and if so, is it possible it is set too deep? Some of the adjustable ones come from the factory set wrong. Otherwise, the shoulder idea might be the case.

 

[Coltdriver]

I picked right up on the CCI primers being harder. They are actually thicker, hence a bit harder than other primers. This makes them useful for a particularly hot load where another primer might crater of flatten more. I learned this when working up 4000 + fps loads for a .204 ruger.

So if they were not fully seated then they could easily give you the problem.

I seat my primers and do so hard enough to get the anvil in touch with the outer cover. But I usually shoot federal match primers and they are some of the thinner primers.

Try really cranking them in there and see if your results improve.

 

[brasskeeper]

If the rounds fired on the second try then I would think it HAS got to be the primers.

I dont agree.

This could be caused by a weak spring. I had a brand new winchester 94 30-30 with a simillar problem. Sometimes it would not fire on the first try and would fire on the second. This was traced back to a weak hammer spring.

 

[Shooters Plus]

Another thing to check is that maybe they are not seated all the way. Could be that the firing pin is hitting the primer and (in a sense) fully seating the primer allowing the second shot, as you mentioned to fire.

Just a thought.
Good luck

 

[Steve C]

I have to agree with Shooters Plus. Its more likely you didn't set the primer fully into the bottom of the pocket thus they didn't go off with the first hit. The first hit finishes what you should have done when seating so the second hit sets it off.

I've never had a fully seated primer fail to go off because it was too deep and if that was the problem they certainly wouldn't go off the second hit because they would be in even deeper.

 

[peterotte]

You mentioned that your bolt was very clean and well oiled. Remove the oil. It is true of primer seating, head spacing and harder primers and weak spring, but, if there is oil in your bolt ...... it has happened. You did not say what the firing pin indent looks like. A protruding primer should seat itself when the bolt is closed - unless the shoulder is set back too far. The combo could be doing it!

 

[scrat]

id agree to them not being set far enough inside. when you fired them the first time the firing pin was seating the primer. then when you pulled the trigger again it went off. you need to seat them fully.

 

[archerben]

Well, I measured the case and found the shoulder to be sized to the exact dimensions stated in my load manual. The first cartridge that misfired looked like it got hit fairly hard by the firing pin. I was actually very surprised that it did not go off. That one did, however, go off on the 2nd try. The 2nd to misfire barely looks like it even got struck. I haven't tried to shoot it again so I'll take a picture of it tonight and try to post it either tonight or tomorrow.

 

[BigFatKen]

I read a shot goes like this: First the firing pin seats the primer all the was into its pocket if it is not there. Then the pin dents the primer metal igniting the prining material which causes the primer to back out of the pocket a little or to the bolt face with the primary blast, then the powder starts to fire and sets the case back to the bolt face which reseats the primer.

I always dry fire my thiry year old Ruger .25-06 a few times before a hunt ""just in case". I have a badly cared for Stevens double 12ga that this is a requirement to fire at all. It is too bad to bother to take to a gunsmith.

If I have the firing sequence wrong, will someone please tell me?

 

[marlin1888]

Are they magnum primers? I can't remember if Winchester uses a harder "cup" in their magnum primers. I have had the CCI hard primer issue before in my Thompson Contender pistols, where I had to switch to Remington primers due to the softer firing pin strike (primers fully seated).

 

[peterotte]

archerben , you say that the first failed primer looked fairly well struck while the second hardly at all. You did not mention the primer position so I would assume that they were both fully seated when you last checked. A primer that does not go off even when not properly seated .... I don't know? Firstly, how does the bolt close if the primer is protruding? And anyway, the firing pin should have enough clout to set if off even if it wasn't seated properly. We are not talking floating firing pins are we? I can't help wondering about weak springs and/or oil or grease or anti-rust or some other contaminant damping the firing pin. Have you tried firing primed only cases? Maybe even try deliberate protruding primers. Perhaps you could do that and post a picture of those together with your misfired one?

It will be interesting to learn the real cause.

Regards
Peter

 

[redneck2]

In the last half dozen trigger pulls it has misfired on me twice (to top it off, both misfires occurred while shooting at deer).

You live in Utah, so I'm guessing that it's been cold while hunting

I bought a new Howa 25-06 back in January that I've probably put about 150 rounds through (all reloads)

Any time I have an unusual problem with something, I try to ask myself "what changed?" If it worked OK for 120 rounds, then malfunctioned in three of the last six it may well either be a problem with one run of reloads or a combination of lube and weather. Oil in the firing pin mechanism can turn into glue when it's real cold.

 

[Doug b]

I agree with the poster that said to remove the lube in the bolt especially if it is wd-40.

 

[Steve Koski]

Springville? I love Springville!

 

[archerben]

I keep forgetting to take a picture of the unfired round...again I'll try to remember to do that tonight. I'm gonna take the gun out tomorrow and try to fire the misfired cartridge again along with a couple of others. Now to answer a few questions that have been asked:

Are they magnum primers?

They are not magnum primers.

You did not mention the primer position so I would assume that they were both fully seated when you last checked.

I would say that they both appear to be fully seated.

You live in Utah, so I'm guessing that it's been cold while hunting

The first one misfired in Wyoming during the 2nd week of September...It was probably about 40 degrees. The second misfire occured last weekend here in Utah...it was about 55 to 60 degrees.

I love Springville!

I moved to Springville from Pleasant Grove about 2 years ago. Initially I didn't want to live south of Provo. Now I don't want to live north of Provo unless I'm going all the way to Idaho. I too love Springville.

 

[Harley Quinn]

The WD situation does come into play about primers some mention.

If you use it and have it around on your bolt that could be a problem.
But then it would not fire on the second strike I don't believe.

Keep us posted.