Gun owners who don't know about guns

[akodo]

When I am introducing newcomers to firearms, I give them the 4 rules, one of which is of course, check to see if the firearm is unloaded.

I always add onto this by saying 'if you are handling guns, or shopping for them, and don't know how to check if it is unloaded, ask. See, there are so so so many different types of guns, even the most experienced gunner will run across something he doesn't know. Having the courage to ask actually shows you know what you are doing. It is the guy who handles the gun a bit, pulls on different parts for no reason, then hands it back all serious and declares it a fine specimin that stands out as the newbie.'

Our constitutional rights to keep and bear arms doesn't require that we be experts in them. "point the barrel at em and pull the trigger" if that is the extent of their knowledge, fine. Sure, the more knowledge, the better.

Truth is, if we pried, I am sure we would find gun related info that you have no idea about, and that you think isn't even relevant. Who knows, maybe these guys are big hunters, can stalk like crazy, track a bloodtrail under a new moon, etc etc, and only know enough about guns to keep them in moderate working condition. In fact, if you talk to a lot of old time hunters, they'll tell you stuff like 'more guns are ruined by overcleaning than by shooting' back in the day, there were a lot less fancy cleaning items. Guys who took their 30-30 out all day, and afterwards ran a patch of kerosine down the bore, rubbed a bit of oil (motor oil, sewing machine oil, olive oil, what have you) on the outside and a tiny drop on the lever, then hung it back over the fireplace, that was pretty normal.

 

[Regolith]

Wait -- they know about the four rules?

I've been around guns my entire life. Didn't really know anything about the "four rules" until I came to this website.


Well, perhaps I should clarify that. I didn't know about the "Four rules" because the way I was brought up and the way we learned it in Hunter Safety class there were 10, perhaps more. The Big Four were definitely included among them, but there were several more added to augment those rules for use in the field while hunting.

So how many of you know about the Ten Rules? Sure, most of the ones that aren't the big four are derivatives thereof, but they are there for specific conditions you may find while out hunting, where the proper application of the Four Rules would not be readily apparent.

Granted, not everyone is a hunter. But odds are, if you talk to a hunter about the "four rules," there's a good chance he's going to stare at you with a blank face. It ain't because he's not safe with a firearm, but its because he was brought up knowing about a hell of a lot more rules than just four. And its not likely he's heard of Col. Cooper, either.

Its a matter of lingo, techspeak, whatever. The rules and mores in one subculture of gun owners are going to be different than the sub culture than another, and its generally because the applications of firearms use changes dramatically from one use to a next. A bench rest shooter is unlikely to need to be to know how able to cross a fence safely with his firearm, for instance. And a hunter isn't likely going to know the rules and regulations involved in cowboy or ISPC shooting, or about "hard primed ammo" needed while shooting an Uzi.

There are some few of us whose interest involve most forms of shooting, whether its defensive, target, or hunting, but for the most part people tend to stick to their specific interest and rarely know a whole hell of a lot about the rest. Hence when a member from one group meets the member of another, and they find they don't grok each other's language, both sides tend to think the other is ignorant or doesn't really know much about firearms, when really they both probably know a hell of a lot more about their specific use of firearms and not much more.

 

[tkendrick]

My experience is that 20% of gun owners know what they are doing and the other 80% are headlines looking for a place to happen.

 

[ReadyontheRight]

But, seriously, is this sort of thing common? I was just really surprised, and so was my husband. Weirded out over here. Is this mainstream gun ownership?

Yes.

Do you know everything about servicing your car, your computer, your refrigerator, your power drill, your air compressor, your toilet? I am personally afraid of a lot of guns I clean going PA-TWANG! with parts flying across the room and ending up in a bowl of oil for a few months if I disassemble it beyond the manual.

Many folks see guns EXACTLY like we ask them to -- as tools. And they treat them as such. Folks need help to understand that any gun is a PRECISION tool.

And I would be VERY happy if all gun owners at least observed the four rules.

 

[ReadyontheRight]

My experience is that 20% of gun owners know what they are doing and the other 80% are headlines looking for a place to happen.

I personally don't think it's that bad, but I would put the 20% on folks who know how to keep their guns clean and 80% who eventually NEED to buy new guns.

But I'm a capitalist. So I think that's a good thing.

 

[BridgeWalker]

servicing your car, your computer, your refrigerator, your power drill, your air compressor, your toilet

Cleaning and maintenance? Yes. Well, I cheat on the computer. I use a Mac. And I don't have a power drill, at least not a functional one, since the charger went missing in our last move.

I'm still agitating for all toilet-related tasks to become strictly a husbandly duty, but that hasn't happened yet.

But, yeah. I don't do my own brakes. Makes me nervous to think about screwing those up. I don't do stuff like tire rotation that require beyond yer average toolbox. But I'm not talking about custom builds or modding or anything like that.

I'm talking about cleaning. Not cleaning beyond a field strip, but cleaning beyond a patch down the bore.

And, no I am not an expert. I don't have a lot of knowledge, and I know. I'm pretty much at what I feel is minimum competency on all but one of my guns. But I hit that minimum pretty quickly after getting them...

 

[.cheese.]

I couldn't care less that most gun owners aren't "gun people"

You think the majority of screwdriver owners are "tool people"?

Or how about the number of people who own computers. How many do you think are computer geeks who can set up a *nix box in 10 minutes and know networking like the back of their hand?

So long as people don't try to take away my guns, I don't really care. The guns are tools, nothing else. I don't care to force my hobbies or ideals on others, and I would prefer that they extend the same respect. It's unfortunate that this isn't the case lately, but I still am not going to lament the fact that more people aren't like me. Everybody is unique, and I have no problem with it.

 

[230RN]

Good observation, regolith:

So how many of you know about the Ten Rules? Sure, most of the ones that aren't the big four are derivatives thereof, but they are there for specific conditions you may find while out hunting, where the proper application of the Four Rules would not be readily apparent.

Granted, not everyone is a hunter. But odds are, if you talk to a hunter about the "four rules," there's a good chance he's going to stare at you with a blank face. It ain't because he's not safe with a firearm, but its because he was brought up knowing about a hell of a lot more rules than just four. And its not likely he's heard of Col. Cooper, either.

I'm in that boat. Until I got on gun sites, I thought there were ten rules also... and they appeared in every manual for every firearm I ever bought new.

I was frankly shocked to find that there were "only" four rules, and when I looked them over, my first questions were (A) what about leaning guns on things they might slide off of, and (B) what about leaning the rifle a fencepost away when climbing over?

I've guess got a fair knowledge of firearms simply because of decades of exposure, but there are a lot of things I've forgotten, and some things I never went into.

Uppers? Lowers? I didn't know what folks were talking about.

C & R? First I ever heard of this term was when I first got on gun boards about two years ago.

Milsurps? Oh, I guess that means military surplus.

So I guess I'm still learning and relearning.

Aren't you?

 

[RockyMtnTactical]

I don't care if they don't know everything about guns... I think this is more about people who pretend to know about guns just because they own one...

 

[BridgeWalker]

I think this is more about people who pretend to know about guns just because they own one...

...and who are letting umpteen years of gunk destroy my/our great-grandfather's .22 that they got because they are "gun people"...

I do admit a tiny tad of sour grapes here.

 

[tkendrick]

But I'm a capitalist. So I think that's a good thing.

There is that

Actually.....

In my current day job, I am in a lot of peoples houses (Realtor). My business card has a list of local gun clubs on the back. And because of where I live I deal about 50/50 with retirees and working stiffs.

For every home that has a gun and an active shooter, I see 5 homes with a gun that hasn't been out of the closet or dresser drawer since it was put there 20 years ago.

Most of what I see is yardsale or pawn-shop quality....but once in a while!!!

The scariest thing is when I go into a recent widows home, they pull out the old man's "war trophy" and tell me the guy down the street offered $25.00 bucks for her mint P08 with Nazi proofs, or a type 38 in really good shape and mum not ground! Not to mention the Winchesters, Beretta's, Colt's, S&W's or the one original H&H double rifle I ran into. And the widows, who are clueless, are generally strapped for cash.

The 80% don't hang around here, but I would tell everyone here to let everyone in their family know not sell a gun or give it away, until they get someone who knows to check it out.

And I'll not break your hearts by telling you about the Purdy dbl fowler that I found where it had been stuck for at least 15 years...........next to the hot water heater...........under the leak.

 

[eliphalet]

Can I ask what the 4 rules are?
I went to hunter's education in 61 or 2 and we learned 10 I think it was along with one or two extras. It's been a long time ago and I forget just exactly. I was already a gun owner and knew the basics from my Father and in use.
So I am interested in just what four special "rules" y'all are talking about that is so important that many others are not even mentioned?
Please enlighten me.

 

[Regolith]

Until I got on gun sites, I thought there were ten rules also... and they appeared in every manual for every firearm I ever bought new.

I was frankly shocked to find that there were "only" four rules, and when i looked them over, my first questions were (A) what about leaning guns on things they might slide off of, and (B) what about leaning the rifle a fencepost away when climbing over?

And those ten rules tend to change slightly, too. The ones that come in Remington's rulebook are a bit different than the ones I was taught by my father and when I took Hunter's Ed in Nevada, which are different still than ones taught in Texas Hunter's Ed.

I suppose this is what makes the four rules so great. They are a distillation of the core concepts involved in dealing with firearms safely. But not everyone is taught just the core concepts, and there are a lot of variations on commonly reoccurring themes, and they can change from one region to another, or from one sport to the other.

Eliphalet - The four rules are as follows:

1. Treat all guns as if they are loaded.

2. Never point the gun at something you are unwilling to destroy.

3. Keep your finger off the trigger until you're read to fire.

4. Know your target and what's beyond it.

It is generally acknowledged that most accidental shootings violate at least one of these rules.

 

[eliphalet]

Thanks,
those are good one's.

 

[ReadyontheRight]

Can I ask what the 4 rules are?
I went to hunter's education in 61 or 2 and we learned 10 I think it was along with one or two extras. It's been a long time ago and I forget just exactly. I was already a gun owner and knew the basics from my Father and in use.
So I am interested in just what four special "rules" y'all are talking about that is so important that many others are not even mentioned?
Please enlighten me.

Four pretty simple rules Jeff Cooper pushed to enlighten all of us shooters and new shooters alike.

Simple is good.

My Dad, our Deer camp and me now have some other very good rules too - for our hunting camp - like "unload your weapon when you come into camp" and "unload your weapon when you come upon another person in the woods".

But Jeff made it all pretty simple and came up with rules applicable to all shooting sports. My hunting camp rules would not work very well on a competitive firing line -- because none of us would be able to have our weapons loaded while we were near each other.

It's hard to put a bullet into something you do not want to if you follow these four simple rules. Especially #1.

P.S. "Open up the chamber when handing a firearm to someone else". I personally consider and enforce as a true 5th rule.

 

[Trebor]

There will always be something you don't know.

For me, the real humbling experience was when I briefly sold guns at a chain store a couple years ago. My knowledge base is modern defensive firearms and "classic" and modern military weapons. I had no idea what shotgun to reccomend for Trap and didn't know that ideally a Trap gun and a Skeet gun should be set up different.

I also found out I know next to nothing about modern production hunting rifles and less then that about modern in-line muzzle loaders. I don't hunt and modern commercial rifles bore me, so I never learned much about them.

Fortunately, I learned a lot from some of the other clerks who had extensive knowledge in some of those areas. One was a competitive shotgunner and another was a die-hard hunter. We never did find anyone to teach us about modern in-line muzzle loaders though.

Heck, even with the military stuff I'm always learning something new. I just learned yesterday that the M-231 firing port weapon for the Bradley Fighting Vehicle fired from an open bolt. I never knew that.

 

[BridgeWalker]

Well, selling things is a whole other ball of wax. Ime, it's a pretty uniformly humiliating experience. I sold computers and in the space of the average week had at least three highly specialized professionals give me a hard time because I didn't know more about tehir highly speciaialized computer equipment than they did.

I think selling a wide variety of just about anything is a different situation than possessing a basic knowledge of the tools one owns and how to use/maintain them.

Honest folks, I didn't start this thread because I know so much. The gaps in my my own knowledge are enormous.

 

[cpttango30]

I do not know many things about gun but I do know quit a lot about them.

I do know that a pellet rifle will not kill anything at 100 yards like I have been told by many people in "The Know".

Just because you have a scope on a rifle does not mean it is a Sniper Rifle. It also dose not mean that it can shoot 1/2" groups at 600 yards.

A 6-24x50mm scope has no place on a 460 Weatherby rifle.

A 1911 in 50gi is not an elephant gun, neither is an ar-15 in 50 Beowolf.

Most of the time I can tell when someone is full of BS. But I do not know how to call them out with out making them look like fools so I just nodd and change the subject.

I know how to take apart my rifles and pistols. I can take down a few others also. I do not need to know where the hydrosulator goes on a uzi or where a muffler bearing goes on a supressed h&k mp5. I will never own one so why do I need to know anything about it other than it shoots bullets out the barrel when you pull the trigger.

 

[Henry Bowman]

But, seriously, is this sort of thing common?

Look at how people treat their cars. Even among those who keep them spotless, many have no idea what's under the hood.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

You know, you have gun owners who don't know about guns and from reading the posts here and on other forums, there are a lot of concealed carry people who have been through their state's concealed carry courses and are amazingly ignorant about the concealed carry laws and use of lethal force laws in their own states.

Look at how people treat their cars. Even among those who keep them spotless, many have no idea what's under the hood.

Yes, but I know it is expensive to fix.

 

[RPCVYemen]

1. Treat all guns as if they are loaded.

2. Never point the gun at something you are unwilling to destroy.

3. Keep your finger off the trigger until you're read to fire.

4. Know your target and what's beyond it.

I swear that when I was growing up, the NRA only taught 3. I don't think they taught the 1st one they teach now. I would have take my first NRA safety course 45 years ago or so. Anyone else from that era recall there being three?

Maybe they sorta taught #1. I was taught that whenever I handed a gun, or handed a gun to someone, the action was open - "You have to be able to see the little hole in the back of the barrel, and see that it's clear", was the way it was explained to us. Between that, and always handling weapons with the action open unless we were shooting, maybe we didn't need #1.

Actually, other than the rules, what I most remember from the class was when they did the rifle powder/pistol powder/black powder demo. One of the old guy who shot s "musket" (as we called it) flintlock came in, and he laid out a long line of rifle powder, a long line of pistol powder, and a pile of black powder on a pine board. Then he lit the rifle powder. You could actually see the difference in burn rate. Nice demo.

Mike

 

[RoadkingLarry]

Do you know everything about servicing your car, your computer, your refrigerator, your power drill, your air compressor, your toilet?

Doesn't everybody???

Jack of all trades, master of none.
Just the way I grew up and I am fascinated by machinery. If I own one or decide I want to buy one (doesn't amtter what it is, gun , motorcycle, truck) I will study the subject and find out all I can about it. Years ago whle hunting on my In-laws place I met up with a fellow hunter and we visited for a few minutes, I asked him about his rifle and he told me it was a .30-06. That was all he new about it, didn't know the brand or the model just knew what "bullets" to buy for it a wally world.

My Dad is the kind of the same way, just "knows" that anything that starts with 7.62 is almost the same as his 1891 Argentine Mauser in 7.65 Argentine.

 

[waterhouse]

I agree with most in the thread who say that guns aren't the only consumer product where people own it but don't know much about it.

One of my college room mates, a male over the age of 21, had no idea how to change a tire. While this goes beyond "basic cleaning," it certainly fits into the "field stripping" category. Most people my age have never changed their own oil. Again, you may say this goes beyond "basic cleaning", but really it is nothing more than getting out the dirty oil and gunk and replacing it with fresh, clean oil. We do the same after most range sessions.

It doesn't just apply to the under 30 generation either. I have Aunts who have to have my cousins come over to change out ink cartridges on their printers. A couple times a year I use a guest restroom at someone's house and the toilet is constantly flowing. It takes under a minute to fix, but God only knows how high the water bill has been and for how long.

On top of all of that, a huge number of gun owners were not raised with guns, and probably own one that they bought for protection. They rarely practice, and thus rarely even see their gun in a dirty state, not counting lint and dust bunnies.

including a bolt action .22--that thing is gonna die if they don't clean it!

I honestly don't think cleaning guns is as important as I was taught. My dad grew up shooting nearly every day, and they would run a wet patch or 2 through the barrel a couple times a week. He used to tell stories about how shocked he was when the the Army expected him to get a white patch, but he taught us the white patch method. After many years of waiting for the patch to come out white, I got to shoot one of those old .22s that my dad grew up with (currently my cousin's via my Uncle.) The little bolt action was over 40 year old, had untold rounds through it, and had spent the first 15-20 years with nothing more than some oil down the barrel after every 3-5 shootings, but it was fine and accurate.

Now, I usually run a wet bore snake through my .22s when I'm done shooting, and about every 4 bricks I take the time to scrub them and get them really clean.

I guess all I'm saying is that the .22 bolt probably won't die if they don't clean it, so long as they keep it dry and rust free.

 

[Gord]

Do you know everything about servicing your car, your computer, your refrigerator, your power drill, your air compressor, your toilet?

I just find it strange when people are ignorant of something they spend a lot of time around as a hobby, and even collect. I can understand the casual one-gun owner being a bit uninformed, but I've known plenty of people with a crapload of guns who don't know squat about them or how they work.

Usually when you have six cars (or even just a car) that you drive around for fun, you know how to work on it to some extent.

If you have a big shop full of tools, chances are you know how to service most of 'em, use them as they were designed to be and you are aware of the ins and outs, so to speak.

If you spend a lot of time with computers as a hobby, you come to know your way around them well and you can fix 'em if needed.

And then you have guns, and the people who own 5+ of 'em that they bought themselves, and take them out all the time, yet think that ".385" is what they need at the Sporting Goods counter in Walmart. Baffling.

 

[Phil DeGraves]

Heck, even a lot of Firearms Instructors don't know what they are talking about except as it applies to the particular weapon system they have been issued. Many of them are completely ignorant of other systems such as cocked and locked single actions or SA/DA actions with decockers. But they consider themselves "gun experts".