Gun Rights for former felons

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If there is a change that would differentiate violent felons from non violent felons and maybe a sunset clause or whatever it would be called on a conviction after release that after X years of keeping your nose clean the record is expunged automatically then I would support it. By nose clean I mean nothing more serious than a speeding ticket or minor traffic violation.

Until that happens, I do not have a problem with felons being denied gun rights.
 
It prohibits sales to someone who has been ADJUDICATED to be mentally ill. Not someone who has participated in mental therapy or who takes anti-depressants. A JUDGE must levy an adjudication, which is again, due process of law.​

That was my point. Someone who has been civilly committed (i.e., by a judge) to a mental hospital is no longer allowed to own a gun. However, it's not all that hard to be civilly committed. All it takes (varying slightly state to state) is a determination that because of a mental illness you are currently a danger to self or others or would come to harm if you weren't committed to a hospital. If you refuse to stay in the hospital voluntarily, your treaters file a petition for civil commitment and a judge decides if you meet those criteria.

However, a number of people can get to that point without having long-lasting or recurring difficulties. People can go through serious crises where they feel genuinely suicidal and end up in the hospital. People can become temporarily psychotic for all sorts of reasons. Certainly, some of these folks end up being long-term psych patients. But some have one episode and return to normal function. Many of these folks are much lower risk than the ex-felon population.

So my question is--given that there appears to be a fair amount of support for restoring rights to ex-felons, how do people feel about the ex-psychiatrically committed?
 
Actually, the judge isn't convicting them of mental illness - he is remanding them to custody for evaluation. If they're found to be in control of their faculties, they are released and no gun rights are lost.
And someone doesn't catch a felony charge over a minor fist-fight.
 
Actually, the judge isn't convicting them of mental illness - he is remanding them to custody for evaluation. If they're found to be in control of their faculties, they are released and no gun rights are lost.​

That's not true. If someone refuses to stay voluntarily in a psychiatric hospital (beyond the initial emergency hold of 24-72 hours), the only way to keep them in the hospital is through civil commitment. That's a judicial determination. It's not a conviction, since it's through civil court, but it has the same permanent effect on their second amendment rights.
 
mmmm.....you may be right, but one lawyer I spoke with said that a civil finding has no bearing on it. That was a while back, and I could easily have misunderstood him - but I'm pretty sure of it, since it concerned someone I was concerned might be able to buy a gun, and it was NOT something that'd be good for anyone around him.
 
"Shall not be infringed" doesn't leave any room for exceptions. If a felon's right to keep and bear arms is being infringed, that is unconstitutional.

To the OP: I sincerely hope that you find a way to get your rights back.


I guess I'll disagree with most other on here. IMO, if a person has served his time, to include probation, then their rights should be restored. Period. Regardless of the crime that was committed. If they want a gun to create more mischief then they can get one whether they're allowed to get one or not.

Prison is not for rehab and it's not to get people off the street. Both of those are potential benefits but the purpose for prison is to PUNISH the person who committed the crime.
__________________

^^ He said it better than me.
 
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i'm not sure of other states but in va the restoration of rights process is fairly easy if one stays outa trouble. very reasonable


It does vary some by state. For example in Missouri voting rights are a given once you have completed your sentence (including Probation or Parole time), but firearms rights are very hard to get back and can only be restored via Presidential pardon, pardon by Govenor, or a bizarre very rarely used process where you basically withdraw your guilty plea or appeal LONG after your sentence is actually completed, and the original court agree's and finds you not guilty of the offense.

That last one was kind of stunner that left the local lawyers confused, but the Judge did it so a guy who got in trouble when he was 19 could become a Police Officer over a decade later. No one I had talked to had ever heard of such a thing. Obviouisly you would have to really have the Judges support for this type of strategy to work.

One thing to be very careful of is local or state laws saying for example "You can have a gun 3-5-10 years after the crime.." That ONLY covers the state statutes, not the Federal laws. In other words you could be legal in the eyes of Texas, but still be snatched up by the ATF for violation of Federal laws...
 
"Shall not be infringed" doesn't leave any room for exceptions. If a felon's right to keep and bear arms is being infringed, that is unconstitutional.​

This has already been mentioned upthread, but bears repeating. The Constitution does not provide absolute rights. Under certain circumstances, the Constitution provides for those rights to be abridged. This is spelled out in the Fourteenth Amendment of the Constitution: (emphasis added)

No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

The Constitution protects you from arbitrary curtailment of your rights. However, court-approved legal processes are available to constitutionally remove these rights under specific circumstances.
 
My mistake. The Fourteenth Amendment applies to states. The gun restriction is based on Federal Law. The Fifth Amendment is actually the applicable one (but with the same operative clause):

"No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation."
 
"Shall not be infringed" doesn't leave any room for exceptions. If a felon's right to keep and bear arms is being infringed, that is unconstitutional.

This has already been mentioned upthread, but bears repeating. The Constitution does not provide absolute rights. Under certain circumstances, the Constitution provides for those rights to be abridged. This is spelled out in the Fourteenth Amendment of the Constitution: (emphasis added)

No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

The Constitution protects you from arbitrary curtailment of your rights. However, court-approved legal processes are available to constitutionally remove these rights under specific circumstances.

That's a good point that I had not heard before; however, I still maintain my position for reasons that others have stated. Besides the fact that any form of gun control simply does not work, I believe that after receiving his full punishment, a felon has fulfilled his debt to society and should have his rights restored.
 
ChuckUSARet

Everyone is well aware of our laws and if you violate them you should be punished. Nuff said.

So you know every page of the 66,000 in the IRS tax code.

Every page of the Dept of Agriculture codes.

You know that no matter where you are in the world that no matter what you import as a souvenir, has no local law (from that country) that makes it illegal to own or possess that souvenir. Or you never drive in a way under any circumstances that could be considered careless or negligent, that might lead to a felony.

All of the above can lead to a Felony conviction. Either in themselves or by you doing something that is relatively stupid like lying to the IRS about something you consider not important, which they also would not find important if you told them the truth either.

Unfortunately there but for the grace of god go us all, we don't know to be perfectly honest what offenses we might commit that could lead to a felony conviction. Yes a lot are obvious, but there are a lot that are not, or there are still others that might or might not be tried as a felony or a misdemeanor, and you got an uptight DA that day.

Not saying that having Felons running around with legally obtained firearms is a good thing. Although Felons running around with illegally obtained firearms isn't a good thing either, and the law is not preventing that.

One thing that needs to be considered, is that applying the title of Felon to someone, and eliminating their RKBA has the potential to be abused. Yes there's due process that found someone guilty of some crime, but given the list of laws that we don't know adding another to the list is hardly going to raise an eyebrow, until (putting on tin foil hat) suddenly a disproportionate number of gun owners get targeted by that law.

Yes felons have criminal records, but we all have records of events that happened to us stored somewhere, not necessarily in a government bureau, but with friends and relatives, and our own memories. I do think that having to carry around a title indefinitely because of some single indiscretion at a young age when yes you should have known better but were stupid, is perhaps a little draconian. In the same way that if one of the people here had a bladder malfunction when aged 9 being known as p*ssy pants when he's in his 40's or forever being known as bedwetter. There is some point where continuing to consider someone a particular label is counterproductive. If some one commits a crime that could be a class C Felony or a misdemeanor and 20 years later because it was tried as a felony they are still considered a felon, after 20 years of having not so much a speeding ticket, is that fair?

Nothing in life is black and white, so supporting a black and white regulation means that you are going to have injustices, both to people wronged by the regulation, and others who are incorrectly not regulated.

Anyway to finish off
"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

I consider that since this is a blanket it's an infringement.
 
Gungnir,

Nope, don't buy it at all. Part of growing up and staying informed is learning generally what the laws are and what sort of conduct can get you into trouble with law. And if people who are engaged in complex or esoteric activities inform themselves of the laws relating to those activities, or they should -- just as those of us who are shooters and gun hobbyists make an effort to stay informed (and should know where to get specific and reliable information if we have questions). And if one is involved in a complex or highly regulated business, he should have the wit to consult legal counsel.

And in any case, every page in the Internal Revenue Code and every Department of Agriculture regulation is not a felony lying in wait to spring on the unwary. People know or should know what they are doing. And they know or at least should know the possible consequences of their acts.

In any case "felon" is not simply a lable. It's a status earned by having been found guilty, or admitted being guilty, of engaging in some form a serious criminal conduct. It reflects a level of dishonesty and disrespect for the rest of us. It's reflects a betrayal of the trust accorded people in a free society. And one acquires that status only after an involved and potential lengthy process with available safeguards and rights.

In addition, while one suffers continuing loss of rights as a result of that status, he has the remedies available and may seek to have those rights restored. If the loss of rights chafes enough, and one feels he is deserving of society's trust once again, let him follow that path.
 
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People don't mistakenly commit violent felonies, don't even try to say it happens cuz you're just being completely dishonest about it.


But, let's say that case does exist, do you want someone with judgement that poor with a firearm? someone who doesn't know the difference between self-defense and felony violence? If there's not enough self-control, then too bad.


There is a process to restore your rights, and it has already been brought up and ignored, ...it's called getting the crime expunged from your record. When the answer is given and then ignored and then every thing else is at fault, you can bet money or gold that the truth is not being told.

An ex-friend of mine from waaay back had a felony dui and went through the process and eventually got his 2A back...in CA of all places too...:what:


Certain criteria have to be met to be charged and convicted of a crime. An innocent mistake on your taxes doesn't meet those criteria and the IRS had ways for you to make amends without charges being filed.
 
I would have to agree with Thomas Jefferson:

"No freeman shall ever be debarred the use of arms."

Or Patrick Henry:
"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined.”


If a man is free then he should retain all rights. If he has violated the rights of another then he shall serve his time, and upon release once again rejoin the Republic.


The list of felonies grows. Even various misdemeanors prohibit someone now, at both the federal and state levels.
The list of misdemeanors grow.

There is even many that could be commited accidently with no malicious intent.

Simply excercising the right to be armed with a gun or other arms is itself a felony many places including some states, imagine that losing a constitutional right by excercising a constitutional right.
Numerous gun laws, knife laws, blunt object laws, and even some that make normal non weapon items a crime if carried for self defensive.
Simply answering an officer's question of "Why do you carry that cane?" With "To help me walk, and in case anyone attacks me". Would make you guilty of a felony in California. Same with a flashlight. Intending to use a blunt object for self defense, even if the object is perfectly legal turns it into an illegal felony object under California law.
Think about that.

I think predatory people are a threat. I also think the government enroachment and gradual destruction of rights are a threat.
I however believe the government is a much more effective organized and determined threat. I will gladly support tying the hands of the more effective threat to preserve liberty.

If arms are meant to preserve liberty from tyrants, but all an agent of tyranny must do is charge anyone who disagrees with them to legaly disarm them, then the purpose of the 2nd is violated.

Sometimes freedom and liberty must be a little more dangerous in the short term, to preserve itself over the long term.

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."

"If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude (more) than the animated contest of freedom - go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!"
 
He will never be able to get a CHL but why can't he have a gun in his home or carry a rifle hunting. I am all for taking away someones right to own a gun if they used one to commit a crime or even if they are guilty of domestic violence or other person to person crime where their intent was to commit a crime and possibaly cause harm. Just my 2 cents.

Driving drunk doesn't potentially cause harm? Thats probably news the the thousands of people who have lost loved ones to drunk driving. Driving while intoxicated is NOT a victimless crime by any stretch of the imagination. the "intent" to do harm may not be there, but the capability of committing said harm most certainly is. Anyone committing vehicular homicide is just as guilty of murder as someone who puts a gun to another's head and pulls the trigger, without ever checking to see if the gun was loaded. In this case, it was a Marine who was loaded, and not a gun. Being a Marine isn't an excuse to disregard the law.
 
1) When some gets out the quit punishing them. When it's over, it's over. The can barely get jobs, how do you expect them to make money legally if they can't get a job.
I'd be more concerned about felons and their pplight if they weren't found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt of a crime that constiututes a felony where they are at. Don't want to check the "Have you ever been convicted of a felony" box? Don't be a felon...seems straightforeward to me, as does allowing these people out on parole to attempt to make something of themselves. Many felons out there make legal livings. Why is it you can't/don't want to? Why qualifies all these other felons for jobs that you can't get? While I've never been charged with a felony, many people I know have....and some of them are making more money then I am as a non-felon.
2) Stop treating them like second class citizens when they get out. Restore there right and if they don't learn their lesson then throw the book at them. Harsher prison terms and enforcement for the death penalty will decrease much as well.

So, you'd ratehr be dead or in prison for longer rather than be released sans some rights? Most people don't feel that way, and believe life on the outside, 2nd amendment rights or not, is perferrable to the alternatives. As far as "second class citizens"...you put yourself in that class. Your actions are directly respobnsible for your situation. ALL responsibility rests on your shoulders.


3) Quit making so laws, many stupid and insane. You get into a little fight and now your life is over, that is insane. The guy who starts a fight and gets a black eye, busted lip and 5 stitches gets off scott free and because the government says I don't have a right to defend myself, my life is over??? Wonder why America has by far the biggest prison population in the world?

Beating people has always been a crime. Aggravated assault laws are nothing new, are clearly defined, and certainly weren't laws you weren't aware of. I think most people realize beating someone is a crime. Kicking them can raise the charge to "with a deadly weapon, since feet, shod or not, can be considered deadly weapons. By kicking him, I'm going to assume the man was down, and thus no longer a threat. The law defends self-defense...to a point. It doens't allow you to unmercifully beat someone after they have started a fight with you. You can defend yourself to a reasonable degree, but can't act beyond that. Either a judge or a jury of your peers appearently believed you went beyond that, to a considerable degree, to find you guilty of aggravated assault. You have qaright to DEFEND yourself, not a right to punish someone who happened to start a fight with you. Theres a big difference. At no time did anyone deny you a right to self-defense. Because you took that "right" too far, you find yourself in your current position.



4) Stop participating in a violent and materialistic culture. Many obesessed with fancy car, clothes, etc are told you are a loser if you don't make big money. The disrespect for the working class in this country has the youth running toward crime. Have you ever listened to a rap song? It is pathetic and all the kids and many adults listen to it.


I've listened to violent rap songs,I play violent video games, and have seen enough violence on TV and in movies (aside from that witnessed in real life) to desensitize anyone...yet I have a brain, and when I engage it, it helps me differentiate between FANTASY and REALTY. I also can figfure out right and wrong, no matter what media I've been exposed to. I'm not about to blame outside influences for the choices I as an indiviual make. Most people can similiarily tell right from wrong. Blaming outside influences like rap music for your situation is laughable. You committed a felony, and have to live with the ramifications of that. You aren't the victim here. While the greater issue of felons and gun rights deserves some merit, I sincerely doubt you have much of an argument yourself, being convicted of not only a felony but a violent one at that. All this talk about how nonviolent offenders shouldn't be held to the same standards of violent felons simply wouldn't apply to you, and I personally will NEVER be in favor of VIOLENT, convicted FELONS being granted access to guns.
 
I really don't care about felons. I have no sympathy for them. Are there some individual hard luck cases? Sure. But the rule is, bad cases make bad law. Basing national policy on Joe White Collar is a mistake, just as much as basing it on Lee Harvey Oswald.
 
Is the country safer since 1968 when felons were made prohibited persons?

Has this form of gun control worked *any* more than any other?

The answer should be self-evident.
 
In my humble opinion no free man should be barred from possesssing arms. That said, in "my world" once a person has completed his sentence and probation he/she has every right he/she had prior to being sentenced to whatever crime was committed. If a person's crime is deemed so heinous that they can never be trusted with a firearm then they don't ever come out of the penal system. Simple, no?
 
Is the country safer since 1968 when felons were made prohibited persons?
You could make that argument about anything.
Is the country better since Look magazine stopped publishing?
Is the country better since we started using plastic ice cube trays instead of aluminum?
Is the country better since women started voting?
It's a non-argument.
 
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