Gun rights in Europe post Charlie Hebdo

[Snejdarek]

Following the Charlie Hebdo attack, I discussed gun laws issues with a French and German friend. My principal point being that it is pretty wrong if people who face daily death threats, and whose offices were firebombed in the past, can't be armed and carry a concealed firearms for protection. Not to mention that the second attack at the market could have been stopped at any moment had ANY of the people inside been armed (actually one of the cashiers got to a gun of the terrorist but wasn't able to to use it so he was shot dead instead).

The second point being that there were three previous terrorist attacks (cars driven into crowd, knife used) in France last December, and in general basically there is one every half-a-year. Third point being that until now the main targets were Jews and off-duty (unarmed) soldiers, so that might have been one of the reasons why the general public has not been alarmed so much by the previous attacks. Last but not least, we have shall-issue concealed carry for 20 years in the Czech Republic, and it has not led to any problems (not to mention that I carry regularly).

I thought that at least part of the argument would get through, but I was dumbstruck by the way in which these friends thought that giving civilians access to effective firearms for self-defense would be actually much worse than "having a terrorist attack about once a year" with the victims not being able to do much else then kneeling down and waiting for the end.

The main points brought by the two were:
(1) It is the job of the government to combat crime/terrorists, not of ordinary citizens. Weapons should be carried only by those with proper training.
(2) Getting armed means being afraid, which they are not. Allowing people to be armed would mean we are at war at home, which we are not.
(3) The laws on self-defense are anyway restrictive to the point that legitimate use of the firearm is next-to-impossible.
(4) Look at the US and the horrible firearm murder rate & school shootings! Anyway, I wouldn't feel safe being surrounded by armed scared people.
(5) Use of firearm by citizen means "self-justice", we have evolved society in order to avoid that.
(6) etc...

I am afraid that this really is the majority opinion in many European countries. I only hope that should a newspaper in Prague be in the same position, that at least half of its staff would carry and at least half of those would get enough training to be really effective. But for most of the rest of Europe, I think that gun rights is a lost cause, no matter what happens.

EDIT: Is there a possibility to correct the poll question?

 

[Willie Sutton]

^^ Interesting that you are Czech (as is my wife, she's from Prague herself and we visit there regularly). The Czechs still remember what happened when Heydrich was shot on the corner of the roundabout on his way to the airport (I've been to the intersection where he was shot, and the church cellar where the assassins were cornered). Czechs remember the past. Not all of it is good.

In any event, the Czechs have a completely different view of the world than the (emasculated) French, Germans, and English. Being isolated from the soft-socialism of the West until the Velvet Revolution, the Czech Republic is far more like the USA in its cultural belief system of individual self reliance. I think that was trained during communism where unless you went out and negotiated personally for the things you needed to live, you did without. More or less a varient of the same frontier mentality that the USA has as it's core original psyche. They were able to see how communism and central planning worked (or didn't), have seen at the point of a bayonet how Fascism worked, and were "released" to go free as a democracy while being able to look at how the balance of Europe had developed postwar. Rather than "follow the herd", they have remained essentially Libertarian in their political framework. Personal freedom is cherished, and state imposed morality is not appreciated. Gay partnerships are recognized, marijuana smoking is legally tolerated, and carry permits are shall-issue. Pretty much the same platform as the US Libertarian political movement puts forth. If it's not harmful to your neighbor, it's OK, and you are free to, as I like to say, "have gay married couples defend their pot farms with their guns" (or at least sort of).

If I were to move to Europe, I would absolutely pick the Czech Republic first. Good food, best beer, wonderful gun laws, good arms makers, nice cars (give me a nice old Tatra please), excellent engineers (Who else knows that Herr Porsche was Czech and not German), build excellent airplanes (Zlin and Aero) and still manage to breed beautiful women. Just ask my wife!


"I am afraid that this really is the majority opinion in many European countries. I only hope that should a newspaper in Prague be in the same position, that at least half of its staff would carry and at least half of those would get enough training to be really effective."

I am absolutely sure that would be true, and likely faster than it would be true in much of the USA. For certain the editors of the New York Times, Washington Post, and Los Angleles Times would not be able to carry legally as quickly as their peers in Prague.



Ahoj!


Willie

.

 

[tarosean]

Since I am on the wrong side of the pond right now... I have been watching nothing but EU broadcasts of this event .

Unlike American events, they seem to know that the crime was committed with illegal guns. They are also in agreement that there are a lot of illegal arms in France...

 

[vaupet]

It will lead to the army becoming visible in the streets ( look at paris) and to police forces increased armament, with assault type rifle, ballistic vestes and armoured cars.
Further it will lead to the rights of the people being erroded (privacy, phonetaps, housesearches without warrants, database misuse, use of camera and drone technology against our own civilians etc.
people + government becoming scared = disarmament of the people and less freedom, over and over again.

We definitely need some kind of era (europian rifle association) in europe, because all our pro-arms-organisations act localy and policy is made in the european parliament and brussels

 

[Willie Sutton]

^^

If the Czech Republic politically mirrors Texas in the USA (which strangely enough it does), Belgium mirrors an odd mix of New York and California, with good beer added.

Which means that your prediction is likely valid for some places in Europe, but certainly not in others. Sort of like predicting what will happen in the USA: What's likely in California surely isn't likely in Montana.

Both Europe and the USA are big places...


Example: Try disarming the Finns and see how it works out. It's been tried. "Good Luck".


Willie

.

 

[splattergun]

With a few exceptions, the European mindset is to surrender all responsibility of "safety" to the government. The reasons why are several, but seems to be consistent with the rise of the acceptance of the socialist ideals of the Mother government, wherein the state assumes responsibility to feed, house, clothe, and protect the populace in exchange for obedience and loyalty to Mother.
Individual responsibility for personal safety is discouraged and met with disdain by both the Mother and her trained children.

In most of Europe, a man's home is NOT his castle, but merely a room in his Mother's house. Therefore, Mother will slap the wrists of the bad terrorists, and her children will still be discouraged from protecting themselves. And the bullies will strike again.

 

[200Apples]

(5) Use of firearm by citizen means "self-justice", we have evolved society in order to avoid that.

Some people like to think we have evolved... but human nature has not changed in centuries. We still prey on one another.

 

[hq]

We definitely need some kind of era (europian rifle association) in europe, because all our pro-arms-organisations act localy and policy is made in the european parliament and brussels

At NRA Finland we've done a lot of co-operation with german Waffenrecht, swiss Pro Tell and a number of other pro gun groups in Europe, both with WFSA and directly. We've managed to prevent and stall a number of anti gun laws over the years but as more left-wing politicians are voted to the European parliament, it has become more and more difficult because of all the crap trickling down from EU directives.

There's just so much we can do, but the whole mindset among general public seems to be shifting. Unregistered guns are getting more and more common, surprisingly many people who have no background in shooting sports are thinking that they might need a gun and because of draconian legislation that makes obtaining a gun legally difficult, they're telling the legislators to get bent. This is not something I've wanted to see but the fact of life is that people will always have guns; goverments can only decide whether they want to approve it or not.

Then again, when a psychopath goes on a killing spree, the lefties declare it's gun owners' fault in general. When couple of religious militia extremists do the same thing, it seems to be nobody's fault because some cultures "must be understood" and the perpetrators most likely sourced their weapons from the vast eastern block arsenals that have been spread around Europe during last couple of decades.

The mentality is pretty sick and something far worse is bound to happen, not just in France.

 

[HOOfan_1]

I read they used fully automatic weapons and even had an RPG. Pretty much proves that people who want to do no good can find the means to get illegal weapons.

 

[vaupet]

@ willie sutton : belgium is not that bad, we have no restrictinons on number of guns we can own, or magazine capacity or barrel lenght and it is pretty easy to get the necessary permits. (i have + 30 firearms, inclusing fn49 and FAL, SCAR L and H on the way)

Mindset in the general public is changing these days, i think.
I never made a secret of me being a gun enthousiast and of last i keep getting more and more people inviting themselves to a day at the range with me and inquiring on how to legally obtain firearms and on getting the proper training.

(Even the husband of a member of the European parliament today, because his burglar alarm went of last night and it took the police over 20 minutes to reach their house)

 

[Willie Sutton]

^^

Glad to hear this, and encourage you to be a good ambassador for what you are showing people.


Willie

.

 

[Pilot]

@ willie sutton : belgium is not that bad, we have no restrictinons on number of guns we can own, or magazine capacity or barrel lenght and it is pretty easy to get the necessary permits. (i have + 30 firearms, inclusing fn49 and FAL, SCAR L and H on the way)

Mindset in the general public is changing these days, i think.
I never made a secret of me being a gun enthousiast and of last i keep getting more and more people inviting themselves to a day at the range with me and inquiring on how to legally obtain firearms and on getting the proper training.

(Even the husband of a member of the European parliament today, because his burglar alarm went of last night and it took the police over 20 minutes to reach their house)

When you say "necessary permits" you mean license to own, NOT to carry in public, or carry concealed, correct? It is great that you can keep them in your home, not so much if you can't carry one legally.

Minor point. There are no "illegal guns". Only guns used illegally by people.

 

[316SS]

Minor point. There are no "illegal guns". Only guns used illegally by people.

I agree, except I don't think it's a minor point. Inexact language flows from and leads to inexact thinking.

In the context of this discussion, many European cultures have reinforced the idea that reliance on the government for personal safety is an indicator of an evolved and sophisticated society, and any person one encounters in public with a gun is a criminal/terrorist, by virtue of them possessing a gun. The tool embodies evil and criminal intent. That is why certain folks, in Europe and elsewhere, would rather die pure than live with the taint of having picked up a gun in their own defense.

 

[Red Wind]

I voted, Maybe, but I wouldn't bet my money on it. Cautiously hopeful is my attitude. There are countries there like the Finns and Czechs to promote some optimism .On the other hand, the birth place of my parents, Holland, and my sisters, France, are perhaps hopeless basket cases of permanent Socialism.

Belgium, Germany, Austria and Italy, perhaps in the middle The UK does not appear promising in the foreseeable future.

With the distinct possibility of endless terrorist attacks, the pendulum could swing in any wild direction on European citizens access to personal firearms..

 

[GEM]

Might a crack in the wall against carry be to allow it for folks who are at risk (much more broadly defined that now).

So a Jewish resident of Paris, a journalist - or the like could apply for a carry permit? One could specify reasonable training (not so much to be an obstacle).

Such a loosening might be a step forward.

 

[SilentStalker]

It will lead to the army becoming visible in the streets ( look at paris) and to police forces increased armament, with assault type rifle, ballistic vestes and armoured cars.
Further it will lead to the rights of the people being erroded (privacy, phonetaps, housesearches without warrants, database misuse, use of camera and drone technology against our own civilians etc.
people + government becoming scared = disarmament of the people and less freedom, over and over again.

We definitely need some kind of era (europian rifle association) in europe, because all our pro-arms-organisations act localy and policy is made in the european parliament and brussels

I agree 100% with this. I have been all across Europe and most of my experiences were like this especially every time I was in the Netherlands. They had full auto weapons, armored cars, everything you can imagine. Personally, I would rather have civvies run if around with guns than live in a police state!

 

[hq]

When you say "necessary permits" you mean license to own, NOT to carry in public, or carry concealed, correct? It is great that you can keep them in your home, not so much if you can't carry one legally.

It varies a lot by country, but in Finland you need a permit for a dedicated SD firearm and a valid reason to carry it. Back in 70's and 80's SD handguns were common, but virtually no applications have been approved in over 20 years and while the legislation concerning carrying a gun in public hasn't changed much over the years, its interpretation has. Fortunately I got my SD handgun permit 25 years ago and it never expires, but my family members can't get one no matter what they do.

Armed self defence is NOT by any means outlawed. If you happen to have your target pistol with you (it must be carried unloaded, out of sight, and you need a valid reason to have it with you), the law doesn't prohibit you from inserting a full mag and using it to defend yourself in an extreme situation - but you'll need a very good reason if you decide to do so. No castle doctrine, though, so you'll have to retreat as long as you can if threatened.

Personally, I've been forced to draw my SD handgun once. I found a burglar in my garage, he pulled a knife, I pulled a gun and he started walking towards me. It took him a couple seconds to realize that I WILL SHOOT, unless he got on the ground NOW. Police picked him up, he got charged with burglary and assault with a deadly weapon, I wasn't charged with anything and the cops even congratulated me for catching the guy.

 

[Snejdarek]

If the Czech Republic politically mirrors Texas in the USA (which strangely enough it does)

Texas and the other states in that direction have strong Czech ancestry presence. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czech_American Interestingly enough about 70% of Czechs that landed on Ellis Island declared freethinkers/agnostic as their religion, which corresponds to the nowadays 80-85% of atheists in the Czech Republic, but somehow from what I read it seems that today's Czech communities in the US are quite Christian. FYI, until 2010 we had slightly more CC licenses per capita then Texas

So a Jewish resident of Paris, a journalist - or the like could apply for a carry permit? One could specify reasonable training (not so much to be an obstacle).

As weird as it may be a Jew in France - or even in Israel - both countries where they basically face daily threat, can forget about CC permit. Meanwhile in the Czech Republic, which for long ranks as the least anti-semitic country in Europe (go figure with only 4.000 muslims) they can get it easily and carry also into a synagogue... world is weird.

We definitely need some kind of era (europian rifle association) in europe, because all our pro-arms-organisations act localy and policy is made in the european parliament and brussels

The FIREARMS UNITED seems to be gaining momentum pretty nicely, considering that they are quite young organization. My only issue with them is that they are based in Poland, which has one of the worst laws in Europe and the lowest per capita gun ownership in Europe. Sometimes one can see that freedom to poses and carry firearms is more of a dream than daily reality for them. But maybe they will be that much more motivated.

belgium is not that bad

In my book, if you can't get CC license easily, it is pretty bad. Guns are tools first and toys second.

BTW how is self-defense with firearm in Belgium, Finland? How ready are the courts to treat these cases at least with some fairness if the law basically doesn't expect such situations to occur and for courts it must be probably as rare as deciding ownership claim of elf and lepricon over a unicorn?

Also, you might find this table interesting: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overview_of_gun_laws_by_nation#Comparison

Back in 70's and 80's SD handguns were common, but virtually no applications have been approved in over 20 years and while the legislation concerning carrying a gun in public hasn't changed much over the years, its interpretation has.

Who is responsible for that? Every single cop I've ever met and talked to about it in the Czech Republic was fiercely supportive of legal firearm ownership, including CC. Hell, the Ministry of Interior officially recommends women and elderly to carry pepper sprays or electric paralyzers .... which are illegal in most other EU countries.

 

[vaupet]

In Belgium, basically there are 3 legally accepted reasons to own guns: hunting, sports and self defense, although self defence is rarely found legit, you realy have to proof that you are at risk and in this very exceptional case you can get a licence to carry.

but if you are at home and you are threatened by burglars, you can use your firearm for self defence. Only last week our 'suppreme court' overuled legislators who refused to give back a revolver to a person who used his 'toy' (revolver with a licence as a sports tool) for self defence and killed a robber.

Now for some further info: mainly because of our 'socialist' systems and the extensive social security (payed for by world record high income taxes) crime rates are very low (since ww2 and until recently) so people more or less lost their instinct for self preservation in more then one way.

If I say until recently, i mean that because of the open borders and the generous social system we now attract gangs from former eastern europe countries (not to generalize: little or no problems with polish or chech people, a lot of trouble with rumania and bulgaria) and muslim extremist, and they help getting our crimerates up,

 

[wannabeagunsmith]

THis is pretty interesting I knew about the Czech Republic but not Belgium being pro-gun.

 

[MagnunJoe]

In Europe ONLY criminals & terrorists have guns. Most Europeans are tax paying pesants subject to ridiculous anti gun laws even worse than CA, MD, NY, NJ, IL, MA, and that's saying a lot.

 

[hq]

Now for some further info: mainly because of our 'socialist' systems and the extensive social security (payed for by world record high income taxes) crime rates are very low (since ww2 and until recently) so people more or less lost their instinct for self preservation in more then one way.

Greetings from the "Democratic Republic" of Finland. I'd be thrilled if my actual income tax rate was ever as low as what's the absolute maximum in Belgium.

While crime statistics are officially on the decline, the socialist social mindset has far more to do with what they actually tell you. For example, violent crime is very common in Finland, but only among the so-called "social security class"; people who live on welfare by choice and have severe problems with alcoholism. Property crime is an interesting anomaly in legislation; sentences are extremely lenient - how does a 2-6 month probation and a small fine for over a dozen car thefts (yes, bona fide grand theft auto) sound? Or the vast majority of convicted burglars, even some robbers not serving any jail time at all? Assaulting a stranger on the street, beating him and causing permanent bodily harm - 12 months is a norm. No permanent injuries? A small fine. On the other hand, speeding, 47mph in a 31mph zone can cost you $100.000+ in fines.

We do have some gangs, mainly from Russia and eastern Europe, but by far the biggest problem are people who are fed by the social security, don't bother going to work and when they get bored and still think that world owes them something, many of them start behaving like laws don't apply to them at all. They rarely if ever get any kind of meaningful punishments when they get caught and the same socialist politicians who have managed to spend roughly half of the GNP on their welfare programs (factually they buy and bribe voters by promising free money), claim that crime is not an individual responsibility but a collective problem.

Quite a few people have had enough. Harshly overtaxed individuals have been moving their companies and assets to Estonia, Spain, Portugal and other EU countries. Once tax money runs out, country's credit rating plummets and socialists are finally forced to stop paying people money for doing nothing, the crime rate will most likely be "interesting".

A number of EU countries have similar problems. Finland is just one of the worst case scenarios, and to be honest, the massive taxation has put the country in a financial free fall. Numbers are still fairly good but there's no sustainability whatsoever and it's going to get much worse much quicker than many people are willing to admit.

Sorry about this, I felt I needed to vent. Most people do realize the current situation, but still have a childish belief that the economy will improve (it won't) to prevent any civil unrest in the future. I don't count on that.

 

[Cee Zee]

From what I've seen through the prism of the net and the tv it seems that attitudes are changing in France and especially in Germany. People don't like what just happened and they are finally ready to do something about it. Of course the same old politicians are playing the same old games. They don't want an armed populace. The people might actually expect freedom if they give them guns.

But I saw numerous reports of people saying the government wasn't getting it done and saying what they did to protect that magazine was a joke. People are finally ready to fight back IMO. If not they are mighty close to it. They might actually have found their testicles hidden away in some trunk in the basement while they were down there cowering in fear. Just the massive turnout for the demonstrations is cause for hope. People are sick of being sitting ducks and I heard lots of comments about how they might have stood a chance if they had been armed at that magazine. And I'm not talking the 2 pistols the cops had there to fight back against full auto AK's and RPG's either. It takes more gun than that to resist that kind of firepower.

Just as an example of the attitude there they had a march to show solidarity against the attacks today and FOUR MILLION people showed up. That shows me something is changing drastically.

Something is going to give soon. If we see another attack anytime soon we could see big trouble in Frog Land

 

[Thermactor]

Europeans don't have a 2nd Amendment to fall back on. Their rights to own firearms are not guaranteed by the law.
There's no way they'll get more gun freedom.

 

[Willie Sutton]

"In Europe ONLY criminals & terrorists have guns."

"Europeans don't have a 2nd Amendment to fall back on. Their rights to own firearms are not guaranteed by the law."


You generalize as if Europe was one unit. I think you would be surprised that there *are* places there where private firearms ownership is absolutely enshrined in law.


Willie

.