Gun safe recommendations

[adirondack]

myrdaal0,

Doesn't it make you wonder how that dealer could so quickly knock off $700 from the price. You get what you pay for and even with the discount the AMSEC is a better value than the Liberty IMO.

 

[myrdraal0]

Why would it be a better value?

It seems like the upgrade from 11ga to 7ga steel in the Liberty body is a pretty big difference.

The AmSec door has more steel, but not by that much. It has a 1/2" steel plate, followed by 1" of DryLight and a 16ga skin. The Liberty has a 7ga shell, followed by 2 layers of fire board and then a 1/4" steel plate. The Liberty also includes an additional ball bearing hard-plate in front of the lock and more than twice as many bolts (which seems like it would help compensate for the thinner hard-plate).

I can still change my mind, but I'm just not seeing why the AmSec would be a better safe.

I'm with you on the knocking $700 off the price. I wasn't even considering the Liberty safe until he did that.

 

[a1abdj]

It seems like the upgrade from 11ga to 7ga steel in the Liberty body is a pretty big difference

It sounds impressive, but let's throw some numbers out there.

7 gauge steel is .1793" thick. The AMSEC uses an 11 gauge (.1196")outer wall with either a 14 gauge (.0747") or 16 gauge (.0598") inner wall depending on model/year. Going with the thinner 16 gauge wall, you have a cumulative thickness of .1794", which is actually more steel than the Liberty by .0001".

As far as the door, the AMSEC has .5000" solid plate door, not counting hard plate. The Liberty is using .1793" for it's outer skin, with a .2500" inner plate for a total of .4293".

Hard plate doesn't do much to slow your average burglar, because most of them aren't drilling safes. I can drill through Liberty's ball bearing plate just as fast as I can drill through AMSEC's hardened steel plate. In this case I'll call it a draw.

The AMSEC has more steel in the body, and more steel in the door. In addition to the steel, the AMSEC uses a cast insulation which provides structural reinforcement (burglary resistance) and real fire protection. Gypsum board provides no structural reinforcement, and limited fire protection.

Door bolts can be an interesting discussion. Most people don't know that the the part of the door that holds the bolts is more important than the bolts themselves. Of course that's a whole other discussion.

Door bolts are important only when the door or frame are at risk of flexing. Assuming you have two solid surfaces, even a single small bolt would hold a door shut. Even small 1/2" diameter bolts would have individual shear strength into the thousands of pounds each. The bolt guides, door, or door frame of a gun safe would give way long before a bolt would sheer.

This is why is is more important to have additional bolts on safes with a higher risk of flexing (lighter strength doors and bodies). The bolts on the AMSEC and the Liberty are both sufficient to prevent a pry attack using common hand tools for a reasonable amount of time.

 

[Dangerousdan]

I have the Liberty and I feel that this is the way to go. If you look around you will find a better price. I'm sure.

 

[myrdraal0]

Honestly, I was never saying that the Liberty Presidential was better than the AmSec. My feeling is that a burgler is going to spend pretty much the same time breaking into either one of them.

I've been talking to safe dealers and locksmiths like crazy and what I've heard over and over is that the AmSec is a "better value" than the Liberty Presidential - but, putting price aside, they are in the same class. I've also heard that many people make the mistake of comparing the Liberty Lincoln safes with the AmSec BF series - and the AmSec is better than the Lincoln.

The comparisons you made even seem to indicate that these are very similar safes.

As far as using fireboard instead of DryLight, the AmSec SF series safes also use fireboard and seem to undergo a similar rating procedure as the BF series (although the times aren't as long). Since I could walk to the fire dept from my house, I suspect either the Liberty or AmSec will be fine for fire protection.

Having said all that, it seems like I could happily pick either one if they are about the same price.

When it boils down to it, I would choose the Liberty based on these reasons:
1) The Liberty interior seems like it will fit my needs better.
2) I've heard from a couple of different AmSec dealers that they've had lots of problems with AmSec lately. When I combine their stories with the lower quality of the lock on the last AmSec safe I got, I wonder if they are having general quality issues right now.

The main thing I prefer about the AmSec is the external hinges, but my space is so narrow that I'm not sure it would matter much.

 

[Guns and more]

So I'm assuming you're just here to sell safes?

Talk about the kettle calling the pot black.

It's all good information. It's also easy to get bogged down in minutia. Every safe manufacturer has things he'd rather you not know.
Every competitor focuses on those.
If I had to do it over, I think I'd get the same safe I have now. Factoring in cost, volume, appearance, ease of use. (Champion)
Would I like a high end safe? Sure, but if I waited until I could afford one, and had my stuff stolen, I'd regret the wait.

 

[a1abdj]

Talk about the kettle calling the pot black.

With all due respect. I have over 1,000 posts here, the majority of which are answering safe related questions as they pertain to all brands. There is a big difference between what I'm doing and what Brown is doing.

Brown is coming in, saying "this is what we sell" and "click here to buy our stuff".

You don't see that in my posts. In fact, it's not unusual at all for me to refer somebody to a local dealer, or even suggest a product that I don't even sell. Most people don't even realize that I'm a dealer, since I'm not here to sell safes.

 

[myrdraal0]

a1abdj, I do appreciate the info you've provided on this thread and others. I realize you're selling safes, but it seems like you have an honest desire to educate people at the same time.

Not to be petty, but it does seem like Brown is taking a different approach. Those posts seem to be advertising and some of the info provided hasn't been relevant to the thread (like mentioning vault doors).

 

[btn]

7 gauge steel is .1793" thick. The AMSEC uses an 11 gauge (.1196")outer wall with either a 14 gauge (.0747") or 16 gauge (.0598") inner wall depending on model/year. Going with the thinner 16 gauge wall, you have a cumulative thickness of .1794", which is actually more steel than the Liberty by .0001".

a1abdj Doesn't the Liberty have an inner wall? Why wouldn't you include that? Also aren't all the current AMSEC's using a 16 gauge inner wall?

As for Brown their first and second post was correcting some misinformation that was stated in this thread, I don't think you can blame them for that. Their third post was telling you about some of their options, much like a1bdj does with the AMSECs he sells.

 

[myrdraal0]

As for Brown their first and second post was correcting some misinformation that was stated in this thread, I don't think you can blame them for that. Their third post was telling you about some of their options, much like a1bdj does with the AMSECs he sells.

You're right, I shouldn't have knocked the info he provided. I guess that third post caught me as a bit out of place, and that's the one I remembered.

 

[a1abdj]

a1abdj Doesn't the Liberty have an inner wall? Why wouldn't you include that?

I don't believe it does. I'm fairly sure it's simply a 7 gauge outer wall with gypsum board glued to it. Many of the Liberty models simply wrap the innermost sheet of gypsum with fabric for the interior. The Presidental may have some sort of wood. I will look at one of the Presidentials tomorrow and let you know for sure.

Also aren't all the current AMSEC's using a 16 gauge inner wall?

They may be, although 14 gauge has also been used. Truthfully, both are very thin, so there's not a huge difference from one to the other.

As for Brown their first and second post was correcting some misinformation that was stated in this thread, I don't think you can blame them for that. Their third post was telling you about some of their options, much like a1bdj does with the AMSECs he sells.

I also asked them a question, and am glad they responded (although I haven't verified the information).

If you google around a bit, you can see some of these companies that make very few posts here (to sell their products) are doing it on multiple forums. It's a modern day form of marketing, and by adding links, is a way to rank higher on search engines.

Although I usually only post in safe related threads, I do own several firearms, and do read the other portions of the forums. In fact, I'm a member here, at thefiringline, and on Sigforum. I'm not out locating gun forums to advertise my gun safes. In fact, gun safes are a very small percentage of my business.

 

[Win1892]

I know that my National Security is a better built unit than my Browning. I also know anything can be penetrated with enough time, skill, and resolve. My safes have ergonomic interiors, are bolted down in a difficult spot, are behind a solid core door, live within a well designed and implemented security system with heat and smoke sensors, with cellular backup. My house is on a cul-de-sac with overprotective retired people living all around. I live within city limits with rapid fire and burglary response.

I honestly think a home invasion is my bigger threat. I think most of us are prepared for that.

 

[myrdraal0]

When the local dealer dropped his price on the Presidential, I called Liberty to verify the specs. They said there is only one 7ga outer layer on the safe body.

They were actually pretty helpful and answered the phone quickly.

 

[a1abdj]

I know that my National Security is a better built unit than my Browning.

National Security built very well made gun safes. Liberty bought them, and for a short while continued to build them to the same specs. As time went on, they started building them lighter.

 

[myrdraal0]

Is it a trend to build safes lighter?

I noticed that the BF7240 was built with an outer layer of 10ga and an inner layer of 14ga - then they switched to 11ga/16ga. My existing gun safe has a 1/4" body, but it seems like the thickest gun safes around now (without spending big bucks) are only 7ga.

I suspect it's because of the price of steel.

 

[Win1892]

My National Security had a problem about 5 years ago, after Liberty had bought them. A nut came off a threaded stud in the door and the bottom bolt rack came loose and dropped into locked position. Liberty sent a safe technician to my house who drilled into the side, through the door and using an optical unit to guide him, lifted the bolt rack and opened the safe. He even filled the drilled holes and had the appropriate paint for touch up. All in warranty.
Kudos to Liberty for that.

 

[a1abdj]

Is it a trend to build safes lighter?

It's not just safes, it's all products. Manufacturers build a product and set a price. As the markets change and that product become more expensive to produce the manufacturer has two options. They can raise the price, or lower their cost to maintain their profit margin. Although prices have gone up, the amount of steel used in safes has gone down to help offset the additional cost of production. This is the same reason you can no longer buy a gallon of ice cream at the store.

This is one of the reasons that composite burglary safes have become more common than steel plate safes. Steel is heavier and cost more. Composites are just as strong, lighter, and cost less to manufacture.

but it seems like the thickest gun safes around now (without spending big bucks) are only 7ga.

I know where there are gun safes that have cumulative 1/4" bodies and 1/2" doors selling in the $1,700 range.

He even filled the drilled holes and had the appropriate paint for touch up. All in warranty.
Kudos to Liberty for that.

I do warranty work for Liberty, and will attest that they have very good customer service. Much better than some competitors that claim theirs is the best.

 

[Brown Safe]

Hey guys... some thoughts...

My purpose of the initial post was to clear up the information that was posted about Brown Safe and inform all users that we do manufacture TL-15 and TL-30 rated safes. Subsequent posts were to help educate all users on what to look for when purchasing a safe and provide options that we offer.

I posted the information about vault doors after the previous user/post inquired about a safe room. We supply our estate vault doors for many commercial and residential safe rooms and do build GSA vault doors for the government. Again, I was trying to be informative and show these doors as an option if the safe room was the chosen route.

Would I like to sell some safes on the forum, of course! Is that my soul purpose of posting and why I signed up, not at all. Bottom line is our safes are not for everyone and are typically on the higher price point of what you find out there. As someone noted, you do get what you pay for when it comes to safes. At Brown Safe, we pride ourselves in manufacturing the best safes available on the market today and don't compromise on anything we do. In addition we provide all safe buyers with the tools needed to make an educated safe purchase which is the link I've provided: http://www.brownsafe.com/categories/faq/faq.htm

Anyone on the forum can use me as a resource and call or e-mail anytime, I would be happy to discuss any questions you have about any safes, not just ours.

Have a great weekend!

Matt Goldstein
Brown Safe
[email protected]
760-233-2293

 

[myrdraal0]

Those look like some serious safes you have there. If I ever move (and I hope I don't), then I may look into one of your vault doors or double-door safes.

 

[Brown Safe]

Thanks, we appreciate the feedback. We pride ourselves in building great products, let me know if you ever need anything!