I was having a debate today regarding the sale of a handgun between 2 private individuals. In the state of Florida, does one need any type of paperwork in order to sell a handgun to someone? Some people were saying you need a notarized bill of sale stating the names/identity of both parties. Others said you need nothing. What say you? Thanks
Gun sale between 2 private individuals
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Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Here you go: https://www.nraila.org/gun-laws/state-gun-laws/florida/
The old idea of having to have (notarized???) bills of sale or whatever stays alive by endless repetition, but it isn't true.
The old idea of having to have (notarized???) bills of sale or whatever stays alive by endless repetition, but it isn't true.
As a practical matter, if the seller knows that the buyer is not a prohibited person and trusts the buyer, I see no problem. But a private seller usually has no means of determining the status of a buyer, and so could be in trouble if the buyer misuses the gun. The laws generally say it is illegal to "knowingly" sell to a prohibited person, but if the state can't prove you "knowingly" sold to a criminal, you have no way of proving you didn't know. Even if the sale is legal, if things go badly wrong, "they" will find some way to get the seller.
(Think of the pressure that would be put on a private seller who sold the gun used at something like Sandy Hook! Every trick in the LE book would be used to put him in prison, no matter what the law says or doesn't say.)
As for tracing, any gun made or imported since 1968 can be quickly traced to the first buyer. And it is not very difficult to trace past that with the power of the federal government. Think you can pull that "I don't remember"? They will make you want to remember!
If you do sell, get the buyer's ID - drivers license name and number (check picture and description against the buyer), conduct the sale in a public place, have a companion, and be armed if possible. Make up a bill of sale; usually not required by law, but an indication that you made an effort to identify the buyer. There is some good advice here:
http://thearmsguide.com/2442/firearms-private-sales-how-to-protect-yourself/
Jim
(Think of the pressure that would be put on a private seller who sold the gun used at something like Sandy Hook! Every trick in the LE book would be used to put him in prison, no matter what the law says or doesn't say.)
As for tracing, any gun made or imported since 1968 can be quickly traced to the first buyer. And it is not very difficult to trace past that with the power of the federal government. Think you can pull that "I don't remember"? They will make you want to remember!
If you do sell, get the buyer's ID - drivers license name and number (check picture and description against the buyer), conduct the sale in a public place, have a companion, and be armed if possible. Make up a bill of sale; usually not required by law, but an indication that you made an effort to identify the buyer. There is some good advice here:
http://thearmsguide.com/2442/firearms-private-sales-how-to-protect-yourself/
Jim
MachIVshooter
Member
As Sam pointed out, nothing required. However, a bill of sale with some personal info isn't a bad idea. Not because it will help prove chain of custody in the vanishingly unlikely event of a trace, but because people who are prohibited or have nefarious intentions are gonna get nervous about going through with the sale.
Totally up to you, and you're not required to vet a seller or prospective buyer, or otherwise ascertain that they are allowed to possess a firearm, but I always felt better about a transaction when the buyer or seller had no problem exchanging that info.
Not true at all. They tried like hell to prosecute Robin Anderson, who supplied weapons to the Columbine shooters. They were unsuccessful.
Totally up to you, and you're not required to vet a seller or prospective buyer, or otherwise ascertain that they are allowed to possess a firearm, but I always felt better about a transaction when the buyer or seller had no problem exchanging that info.
Not true at all. They tried like hell to prosecute Robin Anderson, who supplied weapons to the Columbine shooters. They were unsuccessful.
Here is the fact sheet from the White House on tomorrows Executive Actions
https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-pres...tive-actions-reduce-gun-violence-and-make-our
Some of this may affect private sales between two individuals even if as few as two guns are sold, as mentioned in the fact sheet.
https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-pres...tive-actions-reduce-gun-violence-and-make-our
Some of this may affect private sales between two individuals even if as few as two guns are sold, as mentioned in the fact sheet.
I won't even suggest a situation that could mean trouble, but I am sure most of us can think of one. And even if "they" can't find a reason to prosecute, "they" can make life absolute hell for the "person of interest". (Google Steven Hatfill and Bruce Ivins.)
It is easy to sit in front of a computer and argue that no one could do anything to you if you don't violate the law, but believe me, you don't want to be on the receiving end of an intensive interrogation even by your local friendly police, let alone by the FBI or ATF.
Jim
It is easy to sit in front of a computer and argue that no one could do anything to you if you don't violate the law, but believe me, you don't want to be on the receiving end of an intensive interrogation even by your local friendly police, let alone by the FBI or ATF.
Jim
The easy answer from a qualified opinion is simply call your local Sheriff's Office and ask. It's a ? they have fielded many times, and in the unlikely event of any future 'issues' you can show the call in your phone history as a sincere attempt to obey the law.
rromeo
Member
So you say not true at all, then post that the exact thing happened. I'd say that is completely true.
Sav .250
Member
No.........
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Unfortunately the suggestion to "call the local law enforcement and ask..." is both extremely frequently given, and sadly terrible advice.
While law officers tend to know well the code that deals with the sorts of crimes they arrest folks for day-to-day, they've proven to be utterly horrid at knowing and advising on the areas of law that they do not actively enforce very often (if ever). And firearms sales/transfer laws are prime examples.
Not only do a very large number of us have personal examples of bad info being given out by our own local law enforcement officers or even agencies as a whole, just in the last couple of weeks we had a thread where someone was dealing with an interstate sale where one of the transferees was a COP, and yet didn't have a clue that what he was trying to do was against federal law!
So... call the Sheriff and ask? Unfortunately, no. Look at the law and read it for yourself.
alsaqr
Member
The vast majority of states do not regulate the sale of privately owned firearms. From the BATFE website:
https://www.atf.gov/questions-and-a...edures-should-be-followed-when-two-unlicensed
BTW: The above information was last viewed on 31 August, 2015
Before making the exchange i want to see two things; a current drivers license and a current concealed carry permit issued by the state of OK. The name of the buyer goes in the Disposition column of my Excel firearms database.
IMO: It's very highly unlikely that a person with a current concealed carry permit is a prohibited person.
https://www.atf.gov/questions-and-a...edures-should-be-followed-when-two-unlicensed
BTW: The above information was last viewed on 31 August, 2015
Before making the exchange i want to see two things; a current drivers license and a current concealed carry permit issued by the state of OK. The name of the buyer goes in the Disposition column of my Excel firearms database.
IMO: It's very highly unlikely that a person with a current concealed carry permit is a prohibited person.
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MachIVshooter
Member
The contention is that "they" will find a way to get you, the rebuttal that in a very high profile incident, "they" tried and failed because Ms. Anderson hadn't actually broken any laws. Do you understand now?
Yes, that is true. We even have a colloquial idiom for such; "you might beat the rap, but you won't beat the ride.
george burns
Member
Here is a good explanation of what the new EO's the President is going to try and put into effect will do. And why they will fail.
http://www.bizpacreview.com/2016/01...ill-be-challenged-in-court-291134?hvid=11sfJi
http://www.bizpacreview.com/2016/01...ill-be-challenged-in-court-291134?hvid=11sfJi
oneounceload
member
I live in FL; all you need to do is smile and exchange cash, (lawnmower, or whatever) for gun.
There is no need for a bill of sale and many folks (and I am one) will not bother. The last thing I am doing is giving a stranger my ID information. Since guns aren't registered in FL, there is no "trace back to you".
There is no need for a bill of sale and many folks (and I am one) will not bother. The last thing I am doing is giving a stranger my ID information. Since guns aren't registered in FL, there is no "trace back to you".
"So... call the Sheriff and ask? Unfortunately, no. Look at the law and read it for yourself. "
Correct, law enforcement officers are not in the business of providing legal opinions, nor are they trained to do so.
Practicing law requires a law license. For example a Licensed Real Estate Broker can fill out forms that have blanks for the addition of names etc, but those forms must have been generated by an actual lawyer. The broker may not type up a form on a blank sheet of paper. He is also prohibited from helping a relative fill out a tax form, where a private citizen can do so. I held a Brokers License and an FFL, and found in both cases, my freedoms as a private citizen were reduced, not enhanced. This was especially poignant when I had to enter all my own firearms into the FFL book. When the firearm left, there had to be a paper trail. I gifted my mom a .22 pistol and she had to have a background check.
I live in a state where we have CCW, where the W= weapons. I've been trying to get a document that states which weapons are OK and can't get that from the state website nor does the local sheriff have such a guidance document. The standard answer is "If the weapon is legal to own, it's legal to carry concealed".
My CCW trainer who is a real expert told me a sword or axe meets that requirement.
Correct, law enforcement officers are not in the business of providing legal opinions, nor are they trained to do so.
Practicing law requires a law license. For example a Licensed Real Estate Broker can fill out forms that have blanks for the addition of names etc, but those forms must have been generated by an actual lawyer. The broker may not type up a form on a blank sheet of paper. He is also prohibited from helping a relative fill out a tax form, where a private citizen can do so. I held a Brokers License and an FFL, and found in both cases, my freedoms as a private citizen were reduced, not enhanced. This was especially poignant when I had to enter all my own firearms into the FFL book. When the firearm left, there had to be a paper trail. I gifted my mom a .22 pistol and she had to have a background check.
I live in a state where we have CCW, where the W= weapons. I've been trying to get a document that states which weapons are OK and can't get that from the state website nor does the local sheriff have such a guidance document. The standard answer is "If the weapon is legal to own, it's legal to carry concealed".
My CCW trainer who is a real expert told me a sword or axe meets that requirement.
Red Wind
Member
oneounceload said:
I also live in Florida and agree with all that you say.
I've sold 4 guns FTF with that smile and cash exchange. Never a follow up problem over 25 years.Lost in space without a trace.
X-Rap
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With all this talk the last couple days I got to thinking about comments like those above and wondering how many guns were out there with my finger prints under the grips or stock?
There's no telling how many guns like that may be out there over nearly 35 yrs of buying and selling.
I've basically quit doing either over the last couple years unless it's a heck of a deal.
oneounceload
member
Same here about the fingerprints................and I don't really care.
jaysouth
Member
One of the rare guns that I purchased from a dealer wound up inside yellow tape.
I was contacted by the BATF and they made an appointment to come to my house. When they arrived, there was a very senior looking guy and a new female agent that looked like she was about 16.
The lead agent started the conversation and very politely asked me where I bought the gun and to whom had I sold it.
I very simply told them that I sold the gun in question to a private party at a gunshow after the buyer showed me a driver's license and handgun permit. He paid cash and I offered a receipt which he declined.
The lead agent thanked me for the time and dilligence to get ID from the buyer. He left a card and asked me to call him if I remembered who the buyer was or saw him on the street.
They would not tell me the nature of the crime or the jurisdiction in which it took place.
I never heard another word about the issue.
I was contacted by the BATF and they made an appointment to come to my house. When they arrived, there was a very senior looking guy and a new female agent that looked like she was about 16.
The lead agent started the conversation and very politely asked me where I bought the gun and to whom had I sold it.
I very simply told them that I sold the gun in question to a private party at a gunshow after the buyer showed me a driver's license and handgun permit. He paid cash and I offered a receipt which he declined.
The lead agent thanked me for the time and dilligence to get ID from the buyer. He left a card and asked me to call him if I remembered who the buyer was or saw him on the street.
They would not tell me the nature of the crime or the jurisdiction in which it took place.
I never heard another word about the issue.
Red Wind
Member
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Arizona_Mike
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Non-FFLs are barred from using the NICS System. I'd like to see one such successful prosecution for selling to a stranger before I believe it.
george burns
Member
I honestly don't have any idea to who I sold a gun to 45 years ago. It's hard enough to remember where the car is when you come out of the wrong exit of a Dept store. I have sold under 12 guns in almost 50 years, Normally to upgrade or for lack of use, most went to trade ins on other guns, but probably 6 to regular guys who I either knew, or were on the local forums. I don't ship any guns other than an antique 70 year old Browning that was left to me that sat in my moms closet for 40 years.
That one went to a character, who had the nerve to call me and tell me it wasn't perfect, I said that I never represented it as such, I said it looked great for a 70 year old gun, and it did, he wanted me to pay him 400 dollar to have a mark removed from the stock, "not a scratch" a mark about an inch long.
He never called back, "hey he gave it a shot".
I said we discussed the fact that you had 3 of these and wanted a forth to give to your teenage nephew, so you could all have the same gun. And you're worried about a smudge that it took you a month to see. I just hate guys like that, but that's why I will only do FTF sales and I really don't see that I will need to sell anything for any reason other than boredom.
That one went to a character, who had the nerve to call me and tell me it wasn't perfect, I said that I never represented it as such, I said it looked great for a 70 year old gun, and it did, he wanted me to pay him 400 dollar to have a mark removed from the stock, "not a scratch" a mark about an inch long.
He never called back, "hey he gave it a shot".
I said we discussed the fact that you had 3 of these and wanted a forth to give to your teenage nephew, so you could all have the same gun. And you're worried about a smudge that it took you a month to see. I just hate guys like that, but that's why I will only do FTF sales and I really don't see that I will need to sell anything for any reason other than boredom.
old lady new shooter
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Do sales to an FFL count for deciding a person is a dealer?
Suppose a person decides they don't want one of their guns any more, if they sell it to a gun store does that count toward classifying them as a dealer?
Suppose a person decides they don't want one of their guns any more, if they sell it to a gun store does that count toward classifying them as a dealer?
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
No. Not at all. Not the way you describe it.
There really isn't any "classification" of someone as a dealer. What could/might/does? happen is that someone comes under the ATF's view for some reason as being suspected of dealing without a license. They'd have to look at the totality of things they can find evidence of.
Things like, many purchases and sales over a short period of time. Setting up gun show tables with lots of firearms for sale, month after month, and a "private seller" sign. Advertising lots of guns for sale on the on-line sites and making purchases, seeming to "flip" guns for profit.
Now, the question of using a dealer is a little bit of a red herring. Buying and selling a bunch of guns through dealers would still possibly add to a decent case that you're acting as an unlicensed dealer yourself, no differently than if they were all private sales. Are you dealing in guns? Buying and selling, more or less, "for profit."
But selling ONE? Privately or through a dealer? No way. Not unless the ATF had some kind of airtight case that you were literally acting as a dealer. And that would be a one in a million sort of thing, like they find copies of your new business cards that claim you are a gun dealer when you aren't licensed.
That's actually one of the things mentioned in this new press release. If you're getting business cards printed up with "I buy and sell guns!" on them, with your phone number, and passing them out at gun shows you're probably acting as a dealer. If you get a credit card account so you can process all your gun sales...probably dealing in guns.
But these are all things the BATFE has always been able to use to build a case against someone dealing without a license.
There really isn't any "classification" of someone as a dealer. What could/might/does? happen is that someone comes under the ATF's view for some reason as being suspected of dealing without a license. They'd have to look at the totality of things they can find evidence of.
Things like, many purchases and sales over a short period of time. Setting up gun show tables with lots of firearms for sale, month after month, and a "private seller" sign. Advertising lots of guns for sale on the on-line sites and making purchases, seeming to "flip" guns for profit.
Now, the question of using a dealer is a little bit of a red herring. Buying and selling a bunch of guns through dealers would still possibly add to a decent case that you're acting as an unlicensed dealer yourself, no differently than if they were all private sales. Are you dealing in guns? Buying and selling, more or less, "for profit."
But selling ONE? Privately or through a dealer? No way. Not unless the ATF had some kind of airtight case that you were literally acting as a dealer. And that would be a one in a million sort of thing, like they find copies of your new business cards that claim you are a gun dealer when you aren't licensed.
That's actually one of the things mentioned in this new press release. If you're getting business cards printed up with "I buy and sell guns!" on them, with your phone number, and passing them out at gun shows you're probably acting as a dealer. If you get a credit card account so you can process all your gun sales...probably dealing in guns.
But these are all things the BATFE has always been able to use to build a case against someone dealing without a license.
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